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Firehawk Games

Firehawk Games RPG Products => Novus 2e => Topic started by: Rasyr on September 13, 2020, 03:48:03 PM

Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 13, 2020, 03:48:03 PM
I figured that it might be a good idea to create a thread where I can post updates on the next version of the Beta.

I finally finshed reworking the spells last week. I even got them into the pagemaker file.

I have since then begun working through the manuscript updating other items. Here is a partial list of the updates/changes taking place.
I am sure that I am making others as well, but that is all that I can think of at the moment.
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 13, 2020, 05:50:11 PM
Lots of work. I was reading Novus to start converting races etc for an upcoming Shadow World campaign. Martial Arts, Fighting Styles and Combat moves are something that (while appealing) could use a revisit.
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 13, 2020, 10:38:16 PM
I like the 5 tier system for the Combat styles. I think that it works.

However, I am always open to suggestions. (Please make suggestions!!! I might not use them, but they will often allow me to think of things I might not have thought of  without the suggestion)



In a little more detail, what I have done so far is to change the  "Unarmed" skill to Martial Arts. I currently have it set up so that you have to specialize into a given Martial Arts skill - the ones I currently have are:

Boxing -This includes Jab, Kick, Punch, Quickfire Attack, Roundhouse (Punch), and Takedown.

Tobudo- This includes Kick, Legsweep, Punch, Roundhouse (Kick/Punch), Takeaway, Throw.

Wrestling - This includes Escape, Grab, Legsweep, Takeaway, Takedown, Throw.
Note: Any moves not listed for a style may still be used at a -5 modifier. Or the character may purchase them (similar to purchasing Weapon Proficiencies)


(name "Tobudo" will change, once I develop a Martial Arts Naming system (which will fit into Anwyn))

The Combat Styles of Boxing and Wrestling would be renamed (for example, Wrestling could be renamed to Pakraton (yes, I know the ancient greek wrestling was Pankration, but this would be my fantasy version of it and the Boxing combat style would be renamed as Pugilism).

I was gonna change the MA Styles so that they required one of these skills (i.e. Pugilism requires Boxing as that is the skill used for it).

Currently, a Combat Style (if not Favored) cost 30 CP to learn all 5 tiers (20 CP to learn all 5 if Favored)

I always kinda liked how Champions did Martial Arts (you had to purchase moves and skills, including a knowledge skill to be considered a practitioner of a given style (i.e. you had to know a minimum).

 

Thoughts? Comments?
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Fidoric on September 14, 2020, 01:44:21 AM
Many changes to consider. Wounding system was the thing to change from previous version I think.
Can't wait to read the next manuscript.
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 14, 2020, 06:57:35 AM
I like the way Champions/Hero does a lot of things. Martial Arts Included. I think during the original Novus discussions we drew heavily on them for combat in particular. Just had another comment that is probably better as a new thread....anyway....

Personally, I think MA and the spell system should kind of align.

So, currently the spell system is based on 1) a knowledge skill, 2) an action skill, and 3) the purchase of individual spells.

So, the MA system should follow the same pattern IMO.

1) a knowledge skill to represent the study

2) a fighting skill to represent the action

3) the purchase of individual actions - based on the knowledge skill

That said, players are going to do the cost analysis. So, whatever system is used in 2.0 I think it has to make sense in a "min/max" approach.

 
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 14, 2020, 09:13:43 AM
Ok, so how does this sound --

right now,  The TWC style required that the player have Weapon Focus for the primary weapon.

TWC and all other combat styles require Favored Combat Style to allow for a lesser cost of the style.

The costs being:






























Combat Style Costs
FavoredStandard
24
35
46
57
68








So, if we make the following changes:
For the Martial Arts, additional Combat Moves (beyond those given by the style may be purchased for the smae cost of learning a Specialty (3 CP).







Question

Combat skills are complicated. I could easily simplify them, but it would increase the number of skills overall. Like so:

Basically, take the 5 Skills and turn them into Categories (1H, 2H, Th, Mi, MA). Each "Weapon Group" would then become a seperate skill.

1 Handed would then have 7 skills

2 Handed would then have 5 skills

Missiles would have 3 skills

Thrown would have 4 skills

and Martial Arts currently has 3 skills (as written currently)

(that is 22 skills currently)

And then for each skill, no proficiencies, every weapon in the skill would use the full skill bonus. Weapons in other groups under the same category would use +1 per every 5 ranks in the best skill in that category (or its skill bonus, whichever is higher)

This would also allow us to add a "Style Skill" as well, in which we can say cannot be higher than the weapon skill which holds the weapon. Thus,  the Fencing Style would have a Fencing skill under 1 Handed, but learning it would require that you have equal or higher ranks in Light Blades (and two weapon combo requires the Weapon Focus since both weapons may be in the same Group)



Thoughts? Comments?
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 14, 2020, 10:13:13 AM
TBH - I don't like individual combat skills. The first tweak I did to Novus was use general weapons skills. It makes no sense to me that Magecraft or Survival or Gimmickry cover a variety of uses but I have to develop a separate skill for dagger vs. short sword vs. broadsword. Especially when you consider that there is a greater difference between hunting, trapping, fishing and foraging than wielding a dagger vs. a short sword.

IMO the Weapon Groups should be the classic MERP groups (renamed as Archery, Axe & Hammer, Blades, Pole Arms, Throwing, & Two Handed) + Marital Arts Strike & Sweep. I'd consider combining MA into a single skill with the attack based on SPD but the DMG based on ST or AG depending if its a Strike or Sweep too. (I've been giving some thought to MA, Combat Moves, and Spell Casting and how they should kind of all be similar). I really need to read v15 because I have t see how it is currently hanging together to offer real feedback.

I'm not opposed to a style skill but have concerns with it being a weapon skill. I'd sooner it be a knowledge (as in a previous post somewhere).

You could add a Talent like Weapon Specialist that gives a +1AB to a specific instance of a weapon like broadsword. But, for the skill, I'd rather see a Blades weapon group that covers them all. As a GM/Player it's more fun to have the broad groups so that PCs can use weapons of opportunity or something they picked up during adventuring easier.

Plus, it makes the DPs go further and allows PCs to branch into "secondary" skills easier over time.

I had quite a rant written here. But, deleted most of it until I can read v15. LOL
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 14, 2020, 11:08:28 AM
Currently, the only changes that have been made to the combat skills was to change "Unarmed" to Martial Arts, and to create 3 skills under it. Everything else in regards to Combat skills is currently like v14 so far (I have NOT made any of the above changes yet. I want to hear ideas and discuss them before I make further changes (I am quite open to changes, but I do need to think about the impact across the rest of the system before implementing them)



We already have a Weapon Focus talent (already in v14, so you can look at it there)



As to the suggestions you made While I like the idea of few skills overall. there are some issues I have with the list you provided.
Archery, Axe & Hammer, Blades, Pole Arms, Throwing, & Two Handed) + Marital Arts Strike & Sweep.

Instead I would counter with this list:
This gives us 10 combat skills in total (I am not fond of having Bows and Crossbows being in same skill, but I can live with it hehehe).

THoughts? Comments?
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 14, 2020, 12:19:28 PM
I see why you'd want to separate Blades as one is DEX based and the other STR.

I'm not sure that a ball & chain based weapon vs. a mace/hammer is used enough to bother separating itself out of the Clubs skill. But, if the intention is to have them DEX based vs. Clubs as a STR based weapon I can see it.

I'll re-read v14 (now that I have it). The big test is always character creation.
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 14, 2020, 01:06:55 PM
After some more thought, I came up with the following using the mechanisms we already have in Novus

 



Combat

Combat has a number of sub-skills. As always, having one sub-skill as Favored does not make any of the others Favored. Several of the listed sub-skills also have Specialties within them.

The character knows how to use all weapons in the given Sub-skill or Sub-skill/Specialty combo. Weapons in other Specialties under the same Sub-skill can be used with a -5 modifier, and the other SPecialties can be purchased for a one time cost of 3 CP.
This way we have fewer skills overall (only 7), and no Proficiencies, and you can still pick up the weapons from other Specialties under your skill and use them, just not as well.

 
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 14, 2020, 01:25:28 PM
So, if I purchase Blades: Heavy Blades as a skill I can wield any Heavy Blade without penalty & I can use any Light Blade at -5?
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 14, 2020, 01:42:38 PM
Quote from: 17940
So, if I purchase Blades: Heavy Blades as a skill I can wield any Heavy Blade without penalty & I can use any Light Blade at -5?

Yup

And I just realized that Slings should be up under Archery, not under Thrown.
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 14, 2020, 01:43:00 PM
Just skimmed v14. I had forgotten how much of a divergence Novus 2.0 is from 1.0.
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 14, 2020, 01:56:01 PM
Quote from: 17942
Just skimmed v14. I had forgotten how much of a divergence Novus 2.0 is from 1.0.

Yup...  :)
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 14, 2020, 02:27:33 PM
I can't wait to see the trimmed back version - v14 is a little overwhelming.
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 14, 2020, 03:11:56 PM
Quote from: 17944
I can't wait to see the trimmed back version - v14 is a little overwhelming.

The trimmed back version is sitting at around 132 pages while the  v14 is weighing in a 251....

 
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 14, 2020, 07:47:57 PM
Exactly LOL
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 14, 2020, 07:47:58 PM
Exactly LOL
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: kustenjaeger on September 15, 2020, 04:24:00 AM
I think the smaller number of combat skills with the specialisations strikes a balance between ease of play and crunchiness.

Where would the peasant flail sit - a basic flexible two handed implement normally used for threshing?

 

Edward
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 15, 2020, 05:45:20 AM
Quote from: 17948
Where would the peasant flail sit - a basic flexible two handed implement normally used for threshing? Edward

I would put it under Two Handed (Great Clubs)
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 16, 2020, 10:15:42 AM
Quote from: 17939
  • Pole Arms -- 3 Specialties, Pole Arms, Spears, and Staves
         Pole Arms -- includes Bardiches, Bec de Corbins Glaives,                              Guisarmes, Halberds, lances, Military Forks, Ranseurs
         Spears -- includes javelins short spears, spears
         Staves -- includes bo staff, jo staff, quarterstaff
  • Two Handed -- 2 Specialties, Clubs and Blades
         Greatblades -- includes Bastard Swords, Great Swords,                                            Claymores, etc
         Great Clubs -- includes Battle Axes, Great Clubs, etc. and
    other large weapons (not covered under Pole Arms).

Why do I have these as 2 seperate skills?
I had been going nuts cause I did not like  lisint a skill as Pole Arms (Pole Arms) and eventually settled on Pole Weapons (Pole Arms)

And then this morning, as I am working through updating the Monster skill listing to the new skills, it JUST NOW hit me that Pole Arms should be under 2 Handed.... Doh!
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 16, 2020, 10:33:25 AM
Yes!
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 16, 2020, 11:21:28 AM
2 Handed skill now has 5 Specialties.

 
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 16, 2020, 11:24:13 AM
Cool- looking forward to being able to make some characters and see how it all balances out.
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Fidoric on September 16, 2020, 02:49:54 PM
Back in the days I thought fewer combat skills would be better... and I still do.
What about melee, unarmed, missiles and thrown ?
Do you think that would make too few skills to develop hence too many free CP for fighter types ?

As for the specialties I have not made my mind. I am sure there must be differences between weapons if only for balance reasons.
But some specialties are too superficial I think. For example, take a spear, cut off the blade and you have a perfect staff. I am pretty sure a skilled spearman will feel comfortable using that staff only lacking the ability to do piercing damages but otherwise still fully proficient with his former weapon haft.

Just a quick additional thought: why not use the complication system to emulate weapon similarities. This could make combat compatible with other skills. Say something like full skill in weapons you are familiar with, minor complications for similar weapons (same weapon group), major complication (or worse) for other weapons of the same category (melee or 1h or whatever categories you decide for). We may even mix this with the weapon training talents. (Weapon training 1 gives the previous modifiers, weapon training 2 gives -5/-8 and no weapon trading talent give all non familiar weapons -8)
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 16, 2020, 03:42:01 PM
While I do agree that there may still be some tweaking needed (your comments about the Spear and quarterstaff make an excellent point an will likely result a couple weapons from Spears heading to Staves and the rest going to Pole Arms (length and how they are used issues).

Right now, the main skills are:

Archery (weapon powered missiles)

Blades (slash & stab type weapons)

Bludgeoning (clubs and chains (i.e. morningstars, flails, nunchaku, etc))

Martial Arts (unarmed)

2 Handed (gotta use both hands)

Thrown (the weapons itself is the missile)

six skills total and there are currently 20 Specialties spread among those, but your suggestion above will reduce that to 19.

I think that much less than that would make things to homogenous overall.

As for using Complications, that can be too powerful if used against skills wtih low ranks, but much less powerful for skills with many ranks.

right now, things in another Specialty from one you have are at -5 top the skill, but I am considering changing it to 1/5 (i.e. +1 for every 5 ranks in the main skill)

 
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 16, 2020, 03:50:46 PM
I think the current version would simulate what you are saying pretty well Fidoric. But, I tend to agree with you, the basics of all melee fighting skills are the same: if you we teaching them you'd talk about space, balance, and positioning until the student understood the basics. When we compare this to the "crafting scale" from that type of skill that would basically be ranks 1-5. Sweeping floors and carrying tools.

I think what Fidoric & I circle back to is that: I get that there is a difference in the expertise between wielding a Sword and a Mace, but I can't believe there is a difference in the basics. ie. balance, footwork, spacing, etc.

Now, to be clear, I'm not necessarily saying to re-write or anything. I'm just kind of noting that it's something that makes sense. Most of the other skills in Novus are generalizations except Weapons/Combat skills. Magecraft explicitly gives you access to several very different skill uses at no penalty. I think we could assume it's because these are the fundamentals of becoming a mage. The only specializations are a collection of Lores & crafts associated with magery (potions, summoning etc).

I believe this approach to be more balanced with the rest of the Novus skills.

For comparison with other systems

In D&D 5E (which for good or ill should be the #1 comparable) you are proficient or you are not. I'd have to check, but, I don't think there is a penalty for not having proficiency I think you just don't get the bonus. So, if I am proficient with Martial Weapons I am automatically proficient with Common Weapons. But, if you are proficient with Common weapons, you are not proficient with Marital Weapons. I think this separation makes sense because your proficiency is reflective of a broad class of weapons you are trained in, not a singular stream. You can use a Common Weapon (dagger, club, short sword, scimitar) with your proficiency bonus, but a Martial Weapon (long sword, flail) you do not get the bonus.

Cortex System uses d2-d12 to represent skill expertise (being a mixed dice game and very good BTW). Many skills are developed as a general skill from a d2 to d6 then as a specialization from d8-d12. This makes a lot of sense because things like Athletics or Influence can be applied generally up to a d6 and then specialized into climbing or duping etc at the d8 level. Weapon skills are treated the same way.

I like this and as cumbersome as it is to develop a single skill to say rank 5 then specialize it afterwards it makes more sense than developing several skills all to rank 5 because 1 is a hilt with a 1 foot blade and another is a handle with an axe head.

I use rank 5 as the benchmark because an average starting "warrior" will likely have at least rank 5 in their weapon skill. So, that means they could use any melee or missile weapon to rank 5, but, if they bought 2 ranks in Morning Star they would be able to use it at rank 7.

One of the things I want to see when v15 is ready is how far the CPs go and what advancement is going to look like. It might not fit in to the flow of the game to have to develop multiple weapon skills. Players would be so busy dumping CPs into various weapons that they would be forced to ignore other skills. Whereas if there is a single melee skill they spend once and move on to other areas.

Hence why although I have had a lot of observations about combat skills I've been trying (no not so well) to wait until v15 is out!

LOL

That's it for now - hope its not too much
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 16, 2020, 04:25:32 PM
Hmm...

We could leave the Specialty system in place.

We also already have a modifier to DT that is equal to +1 per every 5 ranks in best melee skill.

What we could do is take that same modifer, and that be the base Combat bonus for ANY type of combat skill where you do not have any ranks.

And we also have the universal combat actions that apply to all weapons as well.

That may help resolve this sort of issue.

 
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 16, 2020, 04:39:08 PM
I dunno - i hate to critique too much until I see v15. But, I've played a lot of Hero System for example, and one of the challenges in GMing is that "improvement" without levels is basically alternating between spending CPs on CSLs and Spells. I'd like to see how it all hangs together
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 17, 2020, 12:18:41 PM
Left to do:
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 17, 2020, 12:23:43 PM
I like the blank bullet.....in anticipation of whatever pops up next
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 17, 2020, 01:37:02 PM
Quote from: 17989
I like the blank bullet.....in anticipation of whatever pops up next

It was not intentional... but it does fit, does it not?

 

ROFL
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 17, 2020, 02:16:43 PM
Yup- I think when Novus 1 was in the works I remember you kind of saying that at some point you just have to decide it's finished. I would forever tinker with it and never finish it
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 17, 2020, 02:54:24 PM
Same here, but gotta set it free at some point....

Side Note: I have decided to leave Snags in, but to make them completely random
 
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 17, 2020, 05:40:43 PM
Sounds cool- i like random cuz it kinda takes the GM off the hook
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 17, 2020, 07:17:16 PM
Ok, posted the Fate Boons in another thread......

While waiting on comments and such, I am going to start working things into the PDF....
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 18, 2020, 10:30:12 AM
up to the Training Path chapter in working the changes into the PDF....

 

Things going ok, but I 'll have to stop soon to spend time doing my day job....
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 18, 2020, 11:48:34 AM
pfffft day jobs......lame
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 18, 2020, 12:18:46 PM
Quote from: 18009
pfffft day jobs......lame

it pays the bills and keeps the wife happy....
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 19, 2020, 12:20:03 PM
Saturday Update -- currently working the changes to the Talents Chapter into PDF (all previous chapters are done, and so are Spell and the Monsters chapters)

Expect me to upload the PDF to the playtest section sometime tomorrow....
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Fidoric on September 19, 2020, 01:43:16 PM
<p style="text-align: right;">This is to be a major overhaul.
Can't wait to see it.</p>
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 19, 2020, 02:19:12 PM
The pared down version will likely be posted later Sunday or Monday (this being the one that would be released to he public)
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: witchking20k on September 19, 2020, 06:48:05 PM
pretty excited- i'll circulate it to my group when I get it. We've switched to Vampire 2nd Edition for a while (with an excellent GM whom I always learn a lot for GMing).
Title: Novus Beta update thread
Post by: Rasyr on September 21, 2020, 12:18:06 AM
And it is there.... booyah!!
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