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Firehawk Games RPG Products => Novus 2e => Topic started by: Rasyr on September 30, 2020, 10:01:33 AM

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Rasyr on September 30, 2020, 10:01:33 AM

Ok, witchking20k's recent post about skills has gotten me thinking about how Specialties work overall.

Right now -- you buy skill ranks in the Base skill and get 1 free Specialty, and then you pay 3 CP for additional Specialties.

We also have at least 1 skill where you buy ranks in the base skill and can use it without any Specialties, but then can also purchase ranks in the Specialties.

Note redefinition: Combat Skills are a group of Related Base Skills. So right now, how they work would be the model for our starting point.

Note: this idea is still forming as I write it, so some of the things here would not work)

• Any unknown Specialty may be used at a -5 (this would be the base skill bonus for all unknown Specialties). Right now gaining a new Specialty costs 3 CP to fully remove that -5 modifier.
• What if we changed that, so that all Specialties (except for the first one learned) could gain a +1 to reduce the -5 by one point (thus you would purchase the Specialty 5 times to fully get rid of the the -5 modifier.
• The Cost of the Specialty would be based on whether or not the skill were Favored (1 CP if Favored, 3 CP if not -- the same costs as a given rank based on Favored/Standard).

Related Skill Bonuses

This is another item brought up in witchking20k's post about skills. This would actually work like the NPB bonus for weapon skills (which would, in turn, need minor tweaking).

Essentially, if you have ranks in a related skill, you get a +1 for every 5 ranks in the related skill, up to a max bonus of +3. No more than one Related Skill Bonus can apply at a time).

(Thus Weapon Training I would allow for a max of +5; and Weapon Training II would allow the bonus to be +1 for every 4 ranks)

Training Paths could then have a list of 2 or 3 skills for which they can receive up to a +5 RSB from appropriate skills (not every TP would have this just as not every TP has Weapon Training).

Thoughts? Comments?

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Rasyr on September 30, 2020, 02:12:52 PM

Here is how the reworked explanation on Specialty Skills in the beginning of the Skills Chapter would look

 

Quote

Specialty Skills - This is a type of skill where you can purchase the base skill, and when purchasing it, you pick a specific Specialty. This is known as the Core Specialty. You get to use the full skill bonus with the Core Specialty, and may use the skill bonus with a -5 modifier for all other Specialties under the same skill. This -5 modifier can never reduce a skill bonus for a skill below a value of zero.

You can learn other Specialties as you progress. Each new Specialty picked up will have to be learned multiple times, with each time reducing the penalty by 1 point. The cost for learning the Specialty is the same as learning the skill. Your ranks in a given non-Core Specialty can never exceed 5 and they are only used to offset the penalty.

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Fidoric on September 30, 2020, 02:49:26 PM

This will have an impact on the TPs too as many of them have two iterations of the same skill. It's possibly not worth it putting 1 CP in a specialty to have -4 instead of -5.

I understand the logic and even like it but it probably involves too much bookkeeping. I would rather keep the current system.

besides, it would have to be assessed accurately but this shifts the balance for character relying on specialty skills (influence eg.) who will have to pay 5 CPs instead of 3 for a full proficiency. Ok, that's not a lot so it may not be a valid point.

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Rasyr on September 30, 2020, 03:23:50 PM

And remember, each Specialty is actually 3 points, so essentially for the given packages (Culture, Training, Background), that 3 points would be put into that Specialty, so the starting minus would only be -2 for those....

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Fidoric on September 30, 2020, 05:02:28 PM

You're right.
this is something that deserves some reflection and probably calculations.

Another approach to the related skill bonus (my son's take on it) would be to grant a stat bonus for the highest rank you get in a skill. For example, search could grant +1/5 ranks in either intelligence or  or wisdom but not both. Such boost would not stack a you could only benefit from the highest one to any given stat. Thus developing 5 ranks in lore and search would not allow for a +2 bonus to intelligence. For that you would have to reach 10 ranks in one of those.

maybe those bonuses are too lenient and should be +1 to a stat / 10 ranks in skills or something like that. This idea just popped up during a phone call tonight and has not been given a long thought.

It would give Novus a build-in way to improve stats beside the dedicated talent.

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Rasyr on September 30, 2020, 05:13:23 PM

Why a stat bonus?

The Related Skill Bonus is a situational bonus, not a permanent bonus.

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Fidoric on September 30, 2020, 06:00:10 PM

Ok.
But this is sort of situational too as you gain the bonus only when using a skill in the proper way. Increasing your speed would make you better at stalking, not at hiding even if both would use the same skill, stealth.
Besides, it's a quite realistic way to improve your stats. A lumberjack doesn't have to go to the gym to build some muscles and increase his strength. This will come naturally over time as he fells trees. Thinking about it, using skills is probably the natural way to increase your stats in the real life.
Now is it suitable for an RPG in general or Novus in particular is another question.
Anyway, it's just an idea.
Now if the goal is to give a minimal bonus to a given set of skills, I understand this proposition may not be appropriate.

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Rasyr on September 30, 2020, 07:55:36 PM

Seems to me that what you are describing (in the lumberjack example) is more of a longterm benefit of a regimine or training/working (which would be simulated with the Stat Increase talent).

 

What er are talking about here, is a simple skill bonus based on knowledge (either Lore or practical knowledge) in a given specific situation.

This is not meant to be any long term benefit or any sort of permanent bonus. It is only something that it meant to come into play in occasional instances.

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Fidoric on October 01, 2020, 12:43:31 AM

Ok.  I understand. My proposition is off-topic.

I like the mechanism of related skill bonus. I wonder if it should be related to certain TPs only or if should apply to everybody. The same question is valid for weapon training too if it becomes a specific version of RS bonus.

By the way we may be talking about two separate mechanisms there.
if I remember correctly, NPB was originally not designed too give a bonus to a skill to stack with regular skill progression but to ensure that a skilled swordsman could not be a complete klutz with a warhammer for example. So it was not designed to give a bonus but to avoid the lack of specific training.

 

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: witchking20k on October 01, 2020, 05:34:08 AM

With Skill Specialties my only concern is with the math. A starting character would have to mx out their Athletics skill to perform any other skill at +0 or buy the 3pt talent. IMO the penalty should be 1/2 ranks rounded down. So, 5 ranks allows you to use other skills at +2. I haven't reviewed the XP/Advancement system yet, but, I think we do have to keep sight of progression being a slow and linear rather than a level based all at once point dump.

Also, if we compare the 2 concepts together at rank 5 we could be allowing a flat +1 bonus to a completely different skill while only having a +0 bonus to a skill identified as being related to a specialty.

Survival & Foraging would be a good example of where this doesn't make sense. 5 ranks in Foraging: Woodland could yield an automatic +1 bonus to Survival: Woodland, but Foraging: Woodland would yield a +0 bonus as Foraging: Highland even though those two types of Foraging are from the same skill tree.

I am a big believer that your "level 1" character need to make sense in order to have people try the game. For most D&Ders the CharGen we are developing is a huge departure from what they are used to. So, I think you have to be able to flaunt the things that will make Novus unique at "level 1".

So, to me, the solution is having the penalty being 1/2 ranks rounded down. This means that an entry level specialist built using say Sylvan/Hunter/Scout as the packages could start with 5 ranks in a single foraging specialty. This would yield a +2 bonus to any other type of foraging or a +1 bonus to Survival.

It's reasonable. Still maintains the value of buying the penalty off. But, also gives flexibility in gameplay too.

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Rasyr on October 01, 2020, 08:59:13 AM

One of the things I was trying to  avoid in my Specialty skill rewrite was a good sized single CP cost to go from -5 (which is what the current modifier is) to using the full bonus.

My thoughts being that allowing the penalty to be bought off was a good compromise.

Now, I can also see the benefit of use half ranks; rounded down, but going that route precludes the smaller buy down and puts us right back to having a single CP cost to go from half to full ranks (putting any intermediary steps there would mean more complicated math.

---

It just occurred to me as I was writing this, that we could possibly take a page from the NPB rules for this too.......

• When you gain a rank a skill with Specialties, you consider that to be a "Core" Specialty, and it uses the full bonus.
• All other Specialties within that skill may be used with a +1 for every 5 ranks in the Core Specialty.
• For 1 CP, you gain a Minor Specialty. This allows you to use +1 for every 3 ranks in the Core Specialty
•  For 3 CP, you turn a Minor Specialty into a Secondary Core Specialty, which uses the full rank bonus.
• You would also be allowed to spend a full 4 CP to jump from not a Specialty (+1/5) to Secondary Core (+1/1).

This way it fits in with how we handle other things (and yes, this would apply to the combat skill specialties as well.

 

Title: Reworking Skill Specialties
Post by: Sunwolf on October 13, 2020, 04:43:10 PM

I like consistency in general, have to check how it costs out on an actual character

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