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Firehawk Games RPG Products => Novus RPG => Topic started by: imported_Witchking20k on June 13, 2014, 07:06:30 PM

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 13, 2014, 07:06:30 PM

Here it is. Maybe Tim can move my post from the Mushroom Kingdom thread into here so I don't have to re-type it....?

Firstly, this is amazing material. I hope Tim is negotiating furiously for you to publish it with/through him! LOL

On the Damage Systems note...

Tim and I had a discussion some months ago about that sort of thing. I introduced a Wound Threshold into my game. Basically- if you take your wound threshold in Hits from a single attack you start to suffer incremental penalties. I play a lot of d6 currently- so, the penalty structure is based off of that. I was tweaking how to calculate the threshold as we went. But here is a sample based off of a Threshold of 5.

26+ Critical Injury -5 * Save vs. Con or Death
21-25 Severely Injured -3 ** Must Make Save vs. Will or Flee Battle
16-20 Injured -2 ** Must make Save vs. Will or Flee Battle
11-15 Hurt -1
6-10 Dazed -1 until next action
1-5 No Effect

The real success of this is that I introduced scaled enemies into the game. Tim will recognise it from some of my previous writing: But you scale the threshold based on the Challenge Rating of the Enemy: Vermin, Minion, Average, Tough, Strong, Mighty. Then if they have a CON bonus it adds to the Threshold.

Example: Vermin Threshold 3, Minion 5, Average 7, Tough 9, Strong 11, Mighty 13

The end result was quicker battles as weaker foes would flee or perish due to the threshold. It is a huge departure from core Novus rules- but, the BEST aspect of Novus is that it is customizable (as we have mentioned elsewhere). I only play tested from levels 1-3. The characters used the Threshold of Average 7+their CON bonus.

Another neat aspect is that to adjust the scale of the game you can simple adjust the Threshold up 1 degree for the players. So, to run a higher-end, epic scale, game you can use the Tough 9+ Threshold for players.

Oh, and you can run a game without Hits using it if you want. But, I haven't tried that.

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 13, 2014, 07:59:02 PM

How is that? I quoted your previous post, and then edited this one and posted the quote into it... (http:///smile.gif)

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 13, 2014, 08:01:30 PM

Excellent- thanks. Hopefully that starts some discussion!

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: Fidoric on June 14, 2014, 09:24:18 PM

26+ Critical Injury -5 * Save vs. Con or Death
21-25 Severely Injured -3 ** Must Make Save vs. Will or Flee Battle
16-20 Injured -2 ** Must make Save vs. Will or Flee Battle
11-15 Hurt -1
6-10 Dazed -1 until next action
1-5 No Effect

I understand that the maluses are given to general activity. I think such a system would work well with a called shot system. To make it simple I propose something like that where the first digit is for general malus and the second for using the wounded body part. For example, taking an injury (-2/-5) in the sword arm would give a -2 to all activities due to the pain but a -5 to all activity using that arm specifically.

26+ Critical Injury -5/disabled * Save vs. Con or Death
21-25 Severely Injured -3/-10 ** Must Make Save vs. Will or Flee Battle
16-20 Injured -2/-5 ** Must make Save vs. Will or Flee Battle
11-15 Hurt -1/-2
6-10 Dazed -1 until next action
1-5 No Effect

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 16, 2014, 02:03:59 PM

Cool. Could be fun paired with a random hit location based off of a naked 2d10 roll.

20 Neck
19 Head
17-18 Hand
15-16 Arms
13-14 Shoulder
9-12 Torso
6-8 Leg
4-5 Foot
2-3 Da'Junk

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: Dorchadas on June 17, 2014, 03:54:25 PM

I've been considering something similar just reading the attack roll to avoid having to roll more dice, but I keep running into the problem that since degree of damage is also determined by the same roll, all hits to certain body parts are serious and all hits to other body parts are glancing. Which makes sense in case of something like the neck (which you probably never want to be hit), but would make attacks lower on the chart do less damage, so if I put hands at the bottom all hits to the hand would be grazing hits.

Also, without body-part-specific HP or critical hit charts, tracking hit location isn't super important to me. And I do love critical hits, but they're a problem just due to probability because attacks coming towards the players greatly outnumber attacks going out to any single adversary, so eventually, one of the PCs is going to lose a limb or get their head cleaved on the first blow, barring some other way to mitigate the damage.

It'd also probably be better to integrate Boon points with the critical hit charts, replacing the damage multipliers. Instead of "double damage," it'd be, "roll 2d10 and consult this chart," and then triple damage would be "roll 2d10+5" or whatever, and so on up the list.

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 17, 2014, 04:31:06 PM

Hero System uses a damage multiplier. .5x for torso, 1x for shoulders, thighs 2x for head and vitals for example

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: Dorchadas on June 19, 2014, 10:33:29 PM

Hero System uses a damage multiplier. .5x for torso, 1x for shoulders, thighs 2x for head and vitals for example

I'm hoping to avoid multiplication if I can, since some of my players have dyscalculia. Also the reason I'd like to replace the "do 2X/3X/YX more damage" results with a chart, since that makes it easier than multiplying. (http:///smile.gif)

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 20, 2014, 02:33:57 PM

Just add a static amount of Hits based on location then. It could be a neat way to introduce weak points in tough foes too

20 Neck +10
19 Head +8
17-18 Hand +6
15-16 Arms +4
13-14 Shoulder +0
9-12 Torso -4
6-8 Leg +0
4-5 Foot +4
2-3 Da'Junk +10000000000000000000

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: Trentin Bergeron on June 21, 2014, 01:00:08 AM

I have found hit location tables to be tedious in play. I think the Boon system handles critical hits well. They actually come up often enough in my experience to make them viable and fun.

I would LOVE to see more combat boons and ESPECIALLY snag options. I personally would like some quasi-randomness to abstract things out in some of these options; so it would be great to be able to spend a boon point and get +1d10 damage or take a page out of Master Book and make a Novus Roll and consult a table for a damage bonus. I would leave out the actual "location" so the GM/Player can describe what happens, fitting it to the situation. So, a really awesome chance roll of +10 damage could be described as a serious wallop to the face or a groin shot, etc.

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 12, 2014, 03:09:12 PM

Witchking20k -- a question.... (well, a couple actually)

For some reason, I had not understood how your Damage Threshold system was working (hence my not commenting on it), likely in part because of my concentrating on other things as well.

But I get it now (I think), so let me paraphrase to see I understand it properly, and then I will ask my question...

Foe has a Damage Threshold (DT) so, for an Orc who has a Con bonus of 2, the DT would be 9., He has a DEF of 19 and AR 8 (from armor)

You attack foe with a Mace (Base Damage 10 (DR 8 + 2 Strength Bonus)). You have an Attack Bonus of 14, you roll a 9 and a 7, for a total of 30. This is 11 points above DEF, so it earns a Boon Point... The attack also does 21 points of damage (before AR).

After AR, the attack only does 13 points of Damage.

Both 21 and 13 are above the DT, but which is used? As with one, he is only Hurt (-1), while with the other he is Severely Injured (-3; Will Save or Flee).

I would presume that he is only Hurt (-1), or else that just completely nerfs armor.

However, how would the Boon Point figure into this?

Do you still track hit points? As some boons include bleeders (continuing damage), and others can multiply the base damage (which would be applied prior to subtracting for armor?

Why not add armor in as part of the Damage Threshold? If you did that, that could simplify things slightly, as you would not be subtracting armor from the hits damage every time then...

Adding AR to the DT, would give our Orc a DT of 9+8= 17. So, that 21 points of damage, would be 4 points over the DT, which would result in no effect to the Orc... And then perhaps have Boon Points shift the Damage up 1 track? (from None to Dazed)

However, if we are including AR into the DT, you could actually step down that base (shifting to the next lower number or get rid of it altogether, or make it a combo of Spd+Con+AR, any minus would be treated as 0 for this)

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 12, 2014, 04:34:57 PM

Had a quick idea about damage -- based partly on what Witchking20k has done, and on the questions I asked above....

This is what I came up with (this might make for a cool article in an issue of Libram Novus, who knows...)

Basically, there are 7 levels..... As shown below

(http://www.firehawkgames.biz/Wounds2.jpg)Thoughts? Comments?

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 13, 2014, 01:49:10 PM

Practical Example Time

Taking Raglin Stonedrake (1st level fighter from the Downloads Area), he has the following converted Stats:

Raglin
DEF 24
DT 13
AB +11 BroadSword (11 BD)

Kobold
DEF 19
DT 7
AB +7 Short Spear (9 BD)

So, in round 1, Raglin gets the initiative. He rolls 9+8 for an 17, for a total attack roll of 28. His damage is 11 + 9 (28-19 (Kobold's DEF)=9) for a total damage of of 18 (9 BD + 9 over DEF), giving us a 11 on the DT table (18 - 7 DT = 9). Which means that the Kobold is Stunned (and gets a -3 starting the next round)

In the Kobold's turn, he rolls 10 + 2 +10 +1; a total of 23 + 7 AB = 30. 30 - Raglin's DEF of 24 = 6. So (6 + 9 BD (http:///smile.gif)

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: Fidoric on July 13, 2014, 02:48:03 PM

I am not sure I understand.
I believe the DT system should work with multipliers rather than subtraction. Besides, AR would better be left out of DT I think lest the system does not work for poisons for example.

As I see it, in your example :
First round Raglin deal 20 damage. The Kobold has AR 6 so he gets 14 damage. If the Kobold is considered to be a minion with +0 constitution he has DT5. If I understand correctly, it should be hurt -1 under Witchking table or stunned under yours. In your table, how many boxes should the Kobold fill?

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 13, 2014, 03:23:45 PM

I am not sure I understand.
I believe the DT system should work with multipliers rather than subtraction. Besides, AR would better be left out of DT I think lest the system does not work for poisons for example.

As I see it, in your example :
First round Raglin deal 20 damage. The Kobold has AR 6 so he gets 14 damage. If the Kobold is considered to be a minion with +0 constitution he has DT5. If I understand correctly, it should be hurt -1 under Witchking table or stunned under yours. In your table, how many boxes should the Kobold fill?

Under my suggested version, There is no static Damage Threshold as Witchking20k has. Instead, the DT is set by the sum of Speed Stat Bonus (ability to roll with blows), Con Stat Bonus (ability to tough it out), and Armor Rating (the better your armor, the less damage you take, or the more damage required to get past defenses) -- this means that more lightly armored foes will get hurt worse, but they should also have higher DEF, so should be getting hit less often (as opposed to heavy armor, getting hit more often, but hurt less often) -- at least that is the general idea...)

And only 1 box gets ticked per injury. The Kobold would mark off a single box. If he got stunned a second time, he would mark off a second box (since the Kobold has a zero mod for Con, he would only have the 2 boxes in each row (so, once he got a second Stun, he would be at -4 instead of -3 since the row is filled in.

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: Fidoric on July 13, 2014, 03:52:51 PM

OK, I get it.
I think we should reduce the number of boxes as the severity increase.

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 13, 2014, 04:44:43 PM

Ok, so how does this look?

The pips inside the boxes are what every creature and being has. The ones outside the box are equal to the character's Con bonus. So that a character with a +3 con is a bit tougher than one with a +1 Con. This isn't a lot of difference on the bruised end of things, but can make a difference on the Mortal Wound side of things (note that there is a maximum allowed on that end and in this instance Mortal does not mean "will kill" but "can possibly kill outright"

Then for the Damage Thresholds, it would be something like this:
31+ Death (no Save)
26-30 Mortal Injury ----> Save vs. Con or Death
21-25 Critical Injury ----> Must Make Save vs. Will or Flee Battle
16-20 Injured ----> Must make Save vs. Will or Flee Battle
11-15 Stunned
6-10 Dazed
1-5 Bruised (no other effect)

The penalty to the left is applied if there is pip checked off inside the box, the penalty to the right is used if there is a pip checked outside the box or if the box is fully checked (in case of no pips outside the box. use only the highest penalty given (i.e. 2 Dazed and 1 Stun give a -3 penalty only)

If all of a given type of wound is marked off, then use the next more serious step. (i.e. if you have already marked off all of the Dazed pips, and receive another Dazed result, then you receive a Stun instead.

Healing -- each Wound level has its own healing rate -- first aid rolls can increase number of pips healed in the given time frame. bruising might need to be renamed "Fatigue" to reflect that it heals once you rest for a bit. Daze and Stun will both heal automatically at the end of the period (the round in which a wound is taken is not counted towards healing time).

(http://www.firehawkgames.biz/Wounds3.jpg) This is still just a rough idea and may need further adjustments..

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 14, 2014, 02:30:55 PM

The Wound Threshold is basically a cinematic tool. Its your characters natural resistance to damage. So, it is based on Constitution. Speed already reduces damage because it reduces attack rolls; therefore reducing the damage.

All damage would be figured normally- so, if an attack yields a Boon -then the Boon effects are calculated then Armour reduces the total damage. The final total Hits is what you use to compare to your Wound Threshold.

So, attack roll of 28 vs. DEF of 16 = +12 (yields 1 Boon point). Attacker is wielding a weapon that does +8 Damage. The Boon is used to add +2 Damage (Strong Attack). Therefore the total Damage is 12+8+2= 22. The Defenders AR of 6 is subtracted= 22-6= +16. Comparing this to the Defenders WT of 5 (below) this would yield a Injured -2 Penalty

16-20 Injured
11-15 Hurt -1
6-10 Dazed (-1 until next turn)
1-5 Bruised (no effect)

One aspect that you should consider is that I don't use HPs at all when i use this system....although you could.....and that I use a formula which is a Base + CON bonus. I divide my bad guys into "Class" and adjust the Base up and down...here is an example:

Mighty 6+CON
Strong 5+CON
Tough 4+CON
Average 3+CON
Minion 2+CON
Vermin 1+CON

What this equates to is the party being able to quickly dispatch Vermin and Minions and having to be careful with the rest...This Damage System is what'll be worked into my Old School Hack I think.

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 14, 2014, 02:51:48 PM

And it is cool and very interesting!!

But also realized over the weekend, that the variations that I am coming up (quite possibly with yours along side it) with might make for good articles in Libram Novus...

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 14, 2014, 03:08:12 PM

As you can probably tell from being one of the only people who has seen a good chunk of my game writing- I enjoy I wide variety of game styles, so, this means that I have played a lot of games and am always looking to incorporate aspects I like from certain games into others.

This is basically the damage system from classic d6 system tweaked for Novus.

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 14, 2014, 03:30:38 PM

Yup, and it is a very cool concept....

I showed the Wound system to somebody else, and he was like "But I like and prefer hit points"

Now if I could only find a decent way of combining the two... hehehe....

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 14, 2014, 04:16:38 PM

You can run a separate HP system quite easily. Use the below break down-

Hits Remaining Effect
51-100% +0
26-50% -1 Dazed (Until Healed)
01-25% -2 Dazed Until Healed)

Then, use the Wound Thresholds normally. The threshold itself is not connected to your state of health- it is a parallel to it. But, because the Dazed -1/-2 factor into your DEF you are already incurring penalties, which basically mean that foes that hit you do +1/+2 damage for you being too concussed to defend yourself properly. You might want to make it a bit harder to Suffer serious injury or cap the penalties for a more "Heroic Scale"

So, a hero with 60 HP & a Threshold of 5 would look like this:

Hits Remaining Status Effect
31-60 O +0
16-30 O -1 Dazed (Until Healed)
01-15 O -2 Dazed Until Healed)

Wound Threshold
21-25 Wounded -3 (until Healed)
16-20 Injured -2 (until Healed)
11-15 Hurt -1 (until Healed)
6-10 Dazed -1 (until Next Turn)
1-5 Bruised (No Effect)

But, really, the mechanic that is important is that you can take 7 hits + be Dazed -1 by a single attack and get whittled down in HP by minions simultaneously. This is the mechanic I use because it makes all foes "dangerous" while adding some sort of permanent consequence to combat too. Players can heal up to stay above the 50% mark but with each attack run the risk of dropping closer and closer to penalties....

As a thought- using my proposed Saves, 3+CON+STR is probably a good built in Threshold...

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: Fidoric on July 15, 2014, 08:25:24 AM

I prefer a simple threshold system like Witchking describe rather than one where you have to fill boxes. The latter can quickly become boring if you have a large fight with many foes to track.
Regarding hit points, they are only a way to keep track of general health. That said, under the proposed Wound Threshold (WT) system, if you don't have HP, when is a combatant taken out ? You have to have a "sudden death" system and without HP, the only way to kill an opponent is to deliver a 5 boons wound. Maybe if someone has accrued more than his CO bonus (or twice that), he is basically incapacitated ?

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 15, 2014, 01:49:51 PM

In my original posts I believe I had Saves required to keep fighting beyond a -2 Penalty. So, if you were Wounded -3 you would make a Save vs. Stamina or pass out. If you were successful then you would need to make a Save vs. Will to continue fighting.

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 15, 2014, 02:07:22 PM

Witchking20k's damage threshold system is very good, and does exactly what he is looking for it to do....

I, on the other hand, am looking for something slightly different, for options that I can drop into (or use as a replacement ) for the core Novus rules. Slightly different goals, but still compatible (I think) in the long run.

(http:///bigsmile.gif)

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 15, 2014, 02:42:39 PM

I think the real good part about this system, and the variations we have discussed, is that it is completely modular and only relies on existing stats.

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 15, 2014, 03:23:38 PM

To me that modularity is a good goal!!

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 15, 2014, 04:22:41 PM

I certainly agree. If you write it with the intention of modularity then it can appeal to a lot more people. For me, it gives me the chance to "port" in my favourite aspects of other games.....

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: Fidoric on July 15, 2014, 05:51:52 PM

I have found that playing with the rules is almost as fun as playing the game!

Title: Alternative Damage Systems
Post by: Zut on July 15, 2014, 06:51:51 PM

I don't know if it is relevant here (if not, please tell me), but I remember a cool rule of one of the Heroquest boardgame expansion.

In this game, the monsters usually had only one life point. But in this expansion, some big monsters (ogres? trolls?) had more life points. However, the GM didn't need to track down the remaining life of every monster, after all the minis were all identical. Instead, in the quest description, there was a "life track", a bar comprised of several boxes. Most of them were blanks, but others had a skull symbol, in random positions.

I.e.:
_ = empty box

(http:///bigeyes.gif)

(http:///angry.gif)

So when a hero did enough damage to hit the big monster, the GM would cross one or several boxes, from left to right, independently of which monster received the damage. If on a particular attack the GM reaches a skull box, the monster died.

I.e.:
We have Hero1, Hero2, and Hero3; MonsterA, MonsterB, MonsterC and MonsterD (there should have as many skulls as there are monsters).
Hero1 does 4 hits to MonsterA. Looking at the life track, 4 boxes are now crossed:

(http:///angry.gif)

Now Hero2 does 3 hits to MonsterB. The GM crosses 1 box and reaches a skull: the remaining damage is forgotten and MonsterB is dead. Yes, dead with only one strike.

(http:///angry.gif)

Going on: Hero3 does 1 hit to MonsterC.

(http:///angry.gif)

Hero1 does 2 hits on MonsterA. MonsterA still standing.

(http:///angry.gif)

Hero2 goes to MonsterD and do (at least) 1 hit. MonsterD is dead. (Either MonsterB and MonsterD were weak, or Hero2 is really strong! (http:///wink.gif)

(http:///angry.gif)

Etc.

I think this system makes for very interesting combat situations and offers less bookeeping for the GM. OTOH, you can't have minuses related to how bad the monsters are wounded. Anyway, I always thought that it would be great with a horde of minions. Comments?

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