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Firehawk Games RPG Products => Novus RPG => Topic started by: imported_Witchking20k on June 18, 2014, 02:45:18 PM

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 18, 2014, 02:45:18 PM

I'm uploading my Old School Hack doc for folks to check out if they wish. I'm sending this off to players shortly as we're doing a 2 night adventure this weekend.

[attachment[/attachment]

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 18, 2014, 07:16:06 PM

You know, I was just skimming over this Old School Hack you did of Novus, and it occurred to me you could actually take this a bit further.....

Perhaps even go for something closer to an old BD&D type of feel (think the old BD&D Rules Cyclopedia type of thing.....), by making something akin to those level progression tables of sorts...

it will take me a little bit to throw together something to use as a bit of an example, but it may be an interesting exercise...

and then I continued looking at the document, and you added in some things I was thinking about.... hehee

Still think you should include Unarmed, and I was thinking that perhaps you should do levels 1-10.... And perhaps make Restricted Skills give a +1 every 3 or 4 levels....

Spells -- I might suggest breaking some of the spells into multiple parts -- for example, the base attack spells, miight do better as 2 spells (1 bolt spell, 1 higher level Ball/area attack spell)

The Combat Skills -- I know you broke them down into 3 skills (and I still think Unarmed should be added, though brawling MIGHT cover it for now, perhaps change Brawling to Unarmed, and then make Brawling an option under what I am proposing)

Basically Something along the following lines.... -- This table shows the specialties....

[b]Melee[/b]	[b]Missile[/b]	[b]Thrown[/b]	[b]Unarmed[/b]
Axes & Hammers Chains Plus Clubs Great Blades Heavy Blades Light Blades Pole Arms Short Blades Spears Staves Sword & Board (requires Heavy Blades) Two Weapon Combo (requires Light/heavy Blades)	Archery (requires Bows) Bows Crossbows Slings	Thrown Axes & Hammers Thrown Blades Thrown Spears	Brawling Boxing Martial Arts Sanju (requires Martial Arts) Wrestling

Then basically, add a Specialties and Combat Moves column to the tables, kinda like so....

Each specialty allows the selection of one of those Combat Skills -- If it is not a selected Specialty, then you only get 1/2 bonus (rounded down) and you cannot use Combat Moves with them)

the following tables show the total number of Specialties and Combat Moves allowed (i.e. they are split among the 4 combat skills available)

Warrior

[b]Level[/b]	[b]Favored[/b]	[b]Standard[/b]	[b]Restricted[/b]	[b]Combat Specialties[/b]	[b]Combat Moves[/b]	[b]Talent Points[/b]	[b]Spell Points*[/b]
1	+1	+0	+0	4	2	+2	+0
2	+2	+1	+0	5	3	+1	+0
3	+3	+1	+1	6	4	+1	+0
4	+4	+2	+1	7	5	+1	+0
5	+5	+2	+1	8	6	+1	+0
6	+6	+3	+2	9	7	+1	+0
7	+7	+3	+2	10	8	+1	+0
8	+8	+4	+2	10	9	+1	+0
9	+9	+4	+3	10	10	+1	+0
10	+10	+5	+3	10	11	+1	+0

Thief

[b]Level[/b]	[b]Favored[/b]	[b]Standard[/b]	[b]Restricted[/b]	[b]Combat Specialties[/b]	[b]Combat Moves[/b]	[b]Talent Points[/b]	[b]Spell Points*[/b]
1	+1	+0	+0	3	0	+2	+0
2	+2	+1	+0	3	0	+1	+0
3	+3	+1	+1	4	1	+1	+0
4	+4	+2	+1	4	2	+1	+0
5	+5	+2	+1	5	3	+1	+0
6	+6	+3	+2	5	4	+1	+0
7	+7	+3	+2	6	5	+1	+0
8	+8	+4	+2	6	6	+1	+0
9	+9	+4	+3	7	7	+1	+0
10	+10	+5	+3	7	8	+1	+0

You might also want to include some hit point progression in there as well... (not a lot of bloat, but some small increases....)

Just some suggestions...

Note: your PDF is missing the table for the Cleric and Magician (it reprints the one for the Thief...)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 19, 2014, 02:53:20 PM

I initially thought of pre-purchasing the +3/+6/level in hit points. But, got lazy/ran out of time

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 19, 2014, 03:04:52 PM

I am going to get feedback this weekend. I can tell you what I am expecting to hear. Players will want:

-HP/Level (as you suggested)
-+1 for restricted Skills at Level 3 & +2 at Level 5
-Class based Feats or Abilities: I was already thinking of discounting some Talents based on Class- or providing a Level trigger where you can select them as you advance
-Damage Dice instead of static Damage for Weapons and spells

But, this is just a a starting point...if we like it enough to want to keep playing I'm sure it'll grow.

Also I am designing it with the intention of playing from levels 1-5 only.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 19, 2014, 04:42:11 PM

I am going to get feedback this weekend. I can tell you what I am expecting to hear. Players will want:

-HP/Level (as you suggested)
-+1 for restricted Skills at Level 3 & +2 at Level 5
-Class based Feats or Abilities: I was already thinking of discounting some Talents based on Class- or providing a Level trigger where you can select them as you advance
-Damage Dice instead of static Damage for Weapons and spells

But, this is just a a starting point...if we like it enough to want to keep playing I'm sure it'll grow.

Also I am designing it with the intention of playing from levels 1-5 only.

In regards to level 1-5 versus level 1-10 -- Personally, I like what you are doing and the direction you are going. It is very interesting. However, what I am thinking about here, it room for possible future expansion. With only doing levels 1-5, then you are going to be limited in the types of creatures that they can fight in the long run (i.e. many high end creatures would simply bee too powerful....)

So, if we stick with 5 levels to begin with, how something like the following table, and that would then still allow for expansion to 10 levels (max) on down the road, and still allow for using more powerful monsters both in the unexpanded, and the later expanded versions....

Warrior

[b]Level[/b]	[b]Favored[/b]	[b]Standard[/b]	[b]Restricted[/b]	[b]Hits[/b]	[b]Combat Specialties[/b]	[b]Combat Moves[/b]	[b]Talent Points[/b]	[b]Spell Points*[/b]
1	+2	+1	+0	+6	4	2	+2	+0
2	+4	+2	+0	+6	5	3	+1	+0
3	+6	+3	+1	+6	6	4	+1	+0
4	+8	+4	+1	+6	7	5	+1	+0
5	+10	+5	+2	+6	8	6	+1	+0

Just a few thoughts.... (http:///smile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 19, 2014, 05:49:29 PM

Duly noted on the creatures- one of the reasons I settled on 1-5 was that Novus does not have a whole lot of spells- 1-5 allowed me to do a scaled spell pick system without running out of spells....

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 19, 2014, 05:57:56 PM

I was going to use the spell gain roll that we had chatted about earlier- but after a few calculations figured out the average roll of a level 1 character would be 11+2+6= 19 and there were only a few sphere spells that had TNs below 20...that didn't seem very fun. So, a spell pick seemed like a more immediate solution.

If we move forward with the Spell Level System I may alter the Casting TNs to be 13+ level*2(so, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23) and leave the scaling options the same.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 19, 2014, 06:40:43 PM

Hmm....

In regards to spells.....

Remember that OD&D only had 9 levels of spells and that essentially you got a new spell level every other class level. If you needed to, you could do something similar, perhaps combine multiple schools of magic to give a greater selection overall...

You don't want a single character to have access to everything (i.e. spells, combat moves, etc..)

Also, my earlier suggestion to split spells into 2 or more spells, was not meant for every spell, but only for certain ones, where the main effect could be changed out (i.e. from bolt to ball to cone -- it is possible that I should have done this for the core rules too, ahh.... hindsight...), the rest of the scaling options could be copied to each resulting spell.

Basically, what you essentially suggesting (or moving towards) here is something along the lines of the Spell Chains or Scalable Spell Lists (http://www.wizlair.net/rolemaster-archives/gaming-articles/scalable-spell-lists" class="bbcode_url) idea that I was toying with back for RM/HARP back in 2008.

One suggestion that I would make would be to take a closer look at the scaling options, and figure out how they will affect casting level..... In fact, you change the casting TNs to be based upon the spell's level, you could slightly rework the spells so that the casting options increase the casting level (and thus increase the casting TN). You could even dump Spell Points and do +1 to casting TN per each spell cast since the last rest (call it "Fatigue"), and then reduce this mod by 1 for every 60 minutes of rest (or 1 for every 30 minutes of sleep), allowing for unlimited casting, so long as the dice hold out (and then casting failures could have effects that also increase the total current mod to casting (i.e. each Snag Point = +2 to Fatigue? to simulate the stress and extra wear from a spell failure?)

You could then create a meditation type talent, where 30 minutes of meditation reduces Fatigue by xx Stat Bonus (with higher level versions that increase the Fatigue reduction....

Just a few ideas off the top of my head... (http:///smile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 20, 2014, 02:30:59 PM

I had thought of using the Spell Scaling to create a base Bolt I, Bolt II, Bolt III and having them available at levels 1, 3, & 5 for example and doing the same to create Ball I, Ball II. at levels 2 & 4. That way I could have "less powerful" versions of attack/defence spells available early.

If I keep toying with this that is likely how I will fill out the spell options.

I would like to have the Casters Magecraft skill factor into something though...so, maybe you cannot access new levels without a certain amount of ranks or something...

We'll see how tonight goes. I am definitely enjoying the core of this- are you feeling a bit of nostalgia?

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 21, 2014, 04:04:11 PM

Hmm.. in the core rules, magecraft determines how many spells you can have. So, perhaps having Magecraft work for level access would work as well...

However, you will want to keep in mind the potential for expansion, so - perhaps like OD&D, where you access a level on every odd level (or every odd rank)....

ohh!!

or, your spell tables -- instead of having them be based on level, have them use ranks in Magecraft..... (and don't forget that you actually give som free ranks out at the time of chargen, so you want to work the max ranks from them into it as well...

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 23, 2014, 02:25:05 PM

Good Idea- I could give the 5 tiers names like: Novice, Journeyman, Expert, Master, Legendary and require ranks to access them

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 23, 2014, 02:38:24 PM

So, the play test was fun. The players made characters before we met on Friday and there was no confusion on how to do it.

We didn't use the action point system for some reason and just defaulted to a major, minor, & movement action each round.

Levelling between 1 & 2 was super fast. And that was basically the desired outcome of this Hack. Everyone just added 1 Skill rank to both Favoured and Standard Skills and spent their talent point (one even saved it, meaning we might be continuing with the game).

A couple of suggestions:
1) add +1 to all talent costs and then have certain classes receive a reduced cost, or break them talents into Combat, Skill, General and Magical and assign a Favoured, Standard & Restricted cost...the idea is to make some more accessible than other by certain classes.
2) Damage Dice for weapons and spells
3) We used the wound threshold system that I outlined in the alternative damage thread for the 2nd session.
4) Using Magecraft as a "Cantrips" skill similar to HARP

I think there were others....but, I don't recall. All in all it was a good time and worth continuing with my little project..

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: Fidoric on June 23, 2014, 03:48:35 PM

Seems great ! (http:///bigsmile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 23, 2014, 05:27:39 PM

Cannot wait to see your revised doc...

(http:///smile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 24, 2014, 02:05:34 PM

I'm going to plug away at it this week. I have a couple of other ideas too.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 24, 2014, 02:23:04 PM

Any comments on the way I re-did Talents Tim. I think they are good enough as is right now as I want to work on the Spells stuff...

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 24, 2014, 03:01:04 PM

Any comments on the way I re-did Talents Tim. I think they are good enough as is right now as I want to work on the Spells stuff...

I liked how you did Talents, it fits within the framework of the design nicely, and works with the number of Talent Points you hand out and the number of levels you have going on. I didn't comment on them before for the simple reason that there was no need (i.e. I didn't feel the need to tinker with them....)
(http:///smile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 24, 2014, 03:53:32 PM

Excellent. Now, what if I handled Spells in similar way...?

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 24, 2014, 04:40:53 PM

Hmm... but how to do it...

I kinda like the idea of Spell Chains, but I also like, since you are going for an old school hack type of feel, something more along the lines of the old D&D Rules Cyclopedia...

Perhaps get rid of Spell Points altogether (as that it something extra to track), perhaps add in a Fatigue score -- it starts off as 0, and then you can accumulate Fatigue in various ways (special strenuous actions, combat, spell casting, etc...

Each point of Fatigue gives a -1 to rolls -- perhaps even tie it into your damage rules as well somehow...

and for spellcasting you could do something like this:

Roll Result
>TN+10 -2 Fatigue
>TN+5 -1 Fatigue
>TN 0 Fatigue
< TN +1 Fatigue
<TN-5 +2 Fatigue
<TN-10 +3 Fatigue
etc...

Perhaps even use it for other physical actions as well...

This way it gives a single thing to track over multiple things

In fact, you could say that the "hit point damage" from weapons is actually Fatigue, and then this table from the other thread would work like so:
Total
Fatigue Effect
26+ Critical Injury -5/disabled * Save vs. Con or Death
21-25 Severely Injured -3/-10 ** Must Make Save vs. Will or Flee Battle
16-20 Injured -2/-5 ** Must make Save vs. Will or Flee Battle
11-15 Hurt -1/-2
6-10 Dazed -1 until next action
1-5 No Effect

Just a suggestion.....

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: Fidoric on June 24, 2014, 05:08:29 PM

And would you put a maximum fatigue capacity (for example 5+Con bonus+Will bonus) or do you think the penalties tied to accrued fatigue are enough?

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 24, 2014, 06:03:19 PM

If we tie Fatigue to the Damage table there, then we are essentially donig away with hit points too.

I would make the Max Fatigue be equal to 25 + Con Bonus + Will + xx
where xx is a number gained each level. (i.e. Warriors might gain +2 per level, while Thieves get +1 per level, and Mages get +1 every 3 levels -- similar to the skill bonuses..

Or perhaps do something like

Con Stat + (2xCon Stat Bonus + Willpower Stat Bonus == Max Fatigue

Then have a Fatigue result table, where you divide this total by 6, and then put the multiples into boxes for each level

Threshold	Wound Level
____	Death
____	Critical
____	Severe
____	Injured
____	Hurt
____	Dazed
0	Healthy

So, if our intrepid Hero has a Con of 18 (2) and a Willpower Stat of 15(1), then Max Fatigue would stat off at 23 (18 + 2 + 2 + 1), and since he is a Warrior, he gets a +10 to this for a total of 33
We divide this by 6 for a result of 5.5 (rounded up to 6)

Threshold	Wound Level
33	Death
30	Critical
24	Severe
18	Injured
12	Hurt
6	Dazed
0	Healthy

So, if he has 7 Fatigue, he is Dazed... if he has 15 Fatigue, he is Hurt, etc....

Our Mage, on the other hand, with a Con of 13(1) and a Willpower of 19(3) would have a Max Fatigue of 18 Giving them a Fatigue table like so:

Threshold	Wound Level
18	Death
15	Critical
12	Severe
9	Injured
6	Hurt
3	Dazed
0	Healthy

Could easily do up a small table that gave total ranges that also gave the increment (so we do the math in advance) -- Could also make the formula a bit more convoluted if we are doing the math for them

Again, just tossing the idea out for perusal...

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 24, 2014, 07:37:48 PM

Like END in Hero System? All actions cost END be them physical , spells, attacks etc..

I like the tactical implications of a system like that...but, as with END in Hero, keeping track of it is a pain....plus, I wonder if its too far a departure from the original idea of the old school game....

Although, a pair of "Meters" that you could move a marker up and down on would be fun....

What I really need to figure out is how you start with and gain more spells.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 24, 2014, 07:55:19 PM

This is how I originally wrote spell acquisition:

Spells and Spell Acquisition

Characters who have access to spells get to either choose a total of ½ their Magecraft bonus in spells or make a number of spell gain rolls equal to their Magecraft bonus to try and learn spells at level 1.

Example: A Mage with +6 in Magecraft at level 1 can either choose 3 spells, or make 6 rolls to learn spells.
To learn a spell the caster must roll Magecraft vs. the Spell Casting TN of a spell. If the roll equal or exceeds the TN then the caster has learned the spell.

Example: Our Mage elects to roll to learn spells. His first choice is Heal Bruise. The Casting TN is 18 so he rolls 2d10 getting 13 adds +6 for a total of 19. He learns Heal Bruise and has 5 more rolls to learn additional spells....

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 24, 2014, 08:03:17 PM

Learning New Spells

Upon advancing a level a character can make 1 + their Primary Stat Bonus in Spell Gain Rolls to learn new Spells.

Example: Our Mage advances from level 1 to 2. He has a Stat Bonus of +2; he will be able to make 2+1=3 spell gain rolls to try and learn new spells.

If this seems to random for your game you can allow a mage to spend their Talent Point to automatically learn 1 new spell every level.

Example: Our Mage advances from level 1 to 2. Rather than risk not learning a new spell- the player elects to spend his Talent Point and automatically learn a new spell.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: Fidoric on June 24, 2014, 08:09:03 PM

I think both ideas work. Let the choice to the player: either take a small but certain benefit or take a chance to earn more... Or less.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 24, 2014, 08:11:53 PM

I agree- I think this is my favourite options for Spell Acquisition & Advancement. As it seems I'll need to re-write a lot of spells the original Observation about the TNs being high may not matter....

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 24, 2014, 09:41:18 PM

I would tack on that even for the random rolls, there should be at least minimum that is learned...

Perhaps something like

Each failed Spell Gain Roll results in a +1 to the next Spell Gain roll this level. If no spell gain rolls were successful, the character will still learn at least 1 spell (the attempted spell with the lowest TN)

Or also, perhaps allowing them to give up a Spell Gain Roll to get a +1 with a roll (i.e. Faryn has 6 Spell Gain Rolls, he decided to use 1 to learn Firebolt, and to drop 2 other spell gain rolls to get a +2 to that roll.)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 25, 2014, 01:35:43 PM

Ideally I want 1st level characters to have 3-4 spells and be able to add 1-2 at most per level....so, maybe you can have as many rolls as you have ranks in Magecraft skill, but learn a maximum of your Prime Stat bonus per level.

So, a character with 6 ranks in Magecraft and a +2 in their stat would get 6 rolls to learn a maximum of +2 spells per level.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 25, 2014, 05:31:11 PM

I like tying it to Stat Bonus for the max learned.. Also like tying the number of attempts to Magecraft skill bonus as well

Would still suggest allowing for trading potential attempts for +1 to the Spell Gain Roll (as that simulates putting more effort into learning and also allows for players, since they know the max number that they are allowed to learn each level, to focus more on the spells that they want to learn.

As for First Level, just say you know 3 spells off the bat, and you may make a single Spell Gain Roll to learn a 4th...

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 26, 2014, 02:01:50 PM

Totally workable...if you get 6 rolls you can trade 5 rolls for a +5 to a single roll. That seems fine. I guess I'm going to have to start drafting this up....

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 26, 2014, 02:42:43 PM

Welcome to my world... (http:///smile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 26, 2014, 05:49:44 PM

LOL- well its a good thing you're an experienced editor too then (http:///wink.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 26, 2014, 07:56:38 PM

LOL- well its a good thing you're an experienced editor too then (http:///wink.gif)

But even those with experience miss things, as Zut's post show...... (http:///bigsmile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 26, 2014, 09:08:49 PM

True- even those who strive to help those who are experienced miss things......as I helped edit NOVUS originally too...LOL.

I think I will break apart the rules into separate docs and handle them individually...

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 02, 2014, 01:46:11 PM

Going to be a busy couple of weeks for me....so, hopefully I don't get too distracted and never come back to this....its been fun.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 02, 2014, 02:27:40 PM

We will remind you every once in a while..... (http:///smile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 02, 2014, 06:28:57 PM

LOL- thanks. I have more half finished projects than I can count...but, such is adult life.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 03, 2014, 12:51:33 PM

I know what you mean, but this is one, I would definitely like to see finished.... (http:///smile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 03, 2014, 04:23:06 PM

Well, I'm supposed to play again this weekend....so, we'll see what happens next week...I am going to re-visit some of it tomorrow morning because one of my players mentioned that it is diverging from the initial vision quickly....I am likely going to roll it in to some of the setting work that I did previously too.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 03, 2014, 04:35:53 PM

I think that you will find, that unless you wanting to create a simple game that has a closed ending, that things will always diverge from your original concepts

The thing to do, is to make sure that you are clear on where you want to go, and then rein yourself in where needed to maintain that initial vision.

For example, I know that I have stressed the idea of allowing for expansion (to that point of being able to handle tougher critters/foes), but thinking about that expansion and how it would affect things doesn't mean you need to change your initial ideas...

Plus there is also the fact, that once you actually start playtesting, things WILL diverge from that initial vision, as you find that some things work well, and others not at all how you imagined them to work. There is no way to avoid that. The idea is to think about alternatives, and how those alternatives will fit back into your initial vision, and to try and stay as close to that as you can.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 04, 2014, 12:28:56 AM

WitchKing20k -- you might want to take a look at what they did here with Fighting Styles (Classes>Fighter> Fighting Styles) as it may give some ideas for how to handle builds https://sites.google.com/site/ddnextindex/

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 04, 2014, 01:49:08 PM

Neat-Oh.

Definitely similar to what I had in mind. No progress today- I forgot my flash drive with me at home- took the wrong one....arggg.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 04, 2014, 02:06:23 PM

Yup, plus I can see ways to work things and make it easier across the board, rather than my (more complicated) suggestions.... (http:///smile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 04, 2014, 03:38:43 PM

I am all about simplicity.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 09, 2014, 05:15:23 PM

Ok- started some drafting this morning. One thing I am doing is eliminating Stat Values. You'll get bonuses or negatives based on the array method provided in Novus. Racial modifiers will give +1/-1 as well. The Talent Stat Increase will add a +1 to bonuses, but can only be purchased 1x per stat.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 09, 2014, 05:46:27 PM

Sounds good...

after reading your OSH, and then looking at DNDNext, I have had some ideas swirling about the head......

Which in turn have been swirling back around something else I came up with at some point (I think I came up with it, but I could be mis-remembering) in regards to a Supers idea I had once....

You you basically get Pips in specific skills, but no stats are associated with those skills. In short, a +3 in Perception is simply a +3 in Perception.... Then the GM would pick a stat, and a skill, and you would roll, adding in the bonuses for those 2, and that would be your total -- the stat selected would be based on how the character was attempting to resolve the issue in question... Plus, you could combine multiple skills (and note: I am likely going to use something along these lines for Novus version 2 whenever I decide to do it).

For example, you have a skill -- Locks -- you want to pick a lock, the GM calls for Dex and Locks, you want to figure out a puzzle lock, the GM calls for either Int or Wis and Locks, finding locks? GM calls for Wis, Locks, & Perception

I would also like to perhaps suggest using, for OSH, the 4 Saves you came came up with instead of the one for each stat...

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 09, 2014, 06:12:29 PM

I use skills like that already- so a +3 in sword could be used with AG for Swashbuckling or INT for a weapon knowledge etc..or STR to attack with it. "Independent Skills" it is called in MiniSix

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 09, 2014, 06:12:48 PM

You you basically get Pips in specific skills, but no stats are associated with those skills. In short, a +3 in Perception is simply a +3 in Perception.... Then the GM would pick a stat, and a skill, and you would roll, adding in the bonuses for those 2, and that would be your total -- the stat selected would be based on how the character was attempting to resolve the issue in question... Plus, you could combine multiple skills (and note: I am likely going to use something along these lines for Novus version 2 whenever I decide to do it).

For example, you have a skill -- Locks -- you want to pick a lock, the GM calls for Dex and Locks, you want to figure out a puzzle lock, the GM calls for either Int or Wis and Locks, finding locks? GM calls for Wis, Locks, & Perception

Just wanted to expand on this a moment -- in regards to Combat Skills....

Basically, I was thinking just a few Combat Skills (Melee, Missile, Thrown, Unarmed), and then you would have specialties (kinda like what I suggested back on the first page of this thread), except that the skill bonus only applied to the specialties. OR, the specialties could be treated just like skills, but which work in Combo with the base Combat Skills (i.e. Two Weapon Combat would use Stat Bonus + Melee + Weapon Skill + TWC skill) The tradeoff being that each "specialty" costs more -- i.e. Melee costs current bonus to incrase, Weapon Skill, since it is under Melee costs current bonus + 1, and TWC would cost current bonus + 2 - and obviously, TWC could not be higher than WS, and WS could not be higher than Melee)

Then a race might get +1 to Hearing, which gives a bonus to rolls involving Hearing.... such as Perception, when trying to listen to hear what is on the other side of a door.....

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 09, 2014, 06:14:42 PM

I use skills like that already- so a +3 in sword could be used with AG for Swashbuckling or INT for a weapon knowledge etc..or STR to attack with it. "Independent Skills" it is called in MiniSix

Cool!! The more I fiddle with that sort of idea, the more I am liking it... as it makes things MORE flexible overall, and allows for "smaller" skill list, while allowing for almost ANY skill that might be wanted...

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: Fidoric on July 09, 2014, 06:38:13 PM

That system is frequently used with dice pools. Legend of the 5 rings works like that (or at least it worked like that last time I have played it more than 10 years ago).

That is a very good and flexible system. One side effect is that you must reconsider what are stats and hat are skills. For example, you could consider that perception is now a stat that you can combine with a thievery skill or a magery skill to notice a would-be pickpocket or a spell caster.

Novus 2? Really? I am with you!

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 09, 2014, 09:44:39 PM

IMO it promotes creative use of skills. From my example above you can use the a +3 in Missile Weapons as an incentive for an archery contest- or make an encounter revolving around accuracy etc. I think the key is including this in the skill descriptor.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 09, 2014, 10:28:17 PM

That is a very good and flexible system. One side effect is that you must reconsider what are stats and hat are skills. For example, you could consider that perception is now a stat that you can combine with a thievery skill or a magery skill to notice a would-be pickpocket or a spell caster.

I wouldn't make Perception a stat, since it is something that can be learned... However, Wisdom, would be the stat that goes with it, since that is the stat for comprehension

Novus 2? Really? I am with you!

Not for at least a year or two, I don't want to do a revision with less than 5 years under release (i.e. not more often than D&D). (http:///smile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 09, 2014, 11:01:51 PM

IMO it promotes creative use of skills. From my example above you can use the a +3 in Missile Weapons as an incentive for an archery contest- or make an encounter revolving around accuracy etc. I think the key is including this in the skill descriptor.

Not only in skill descriptions, but also in a very good understanding of the purpose of each stat as well...

For example....

Int == for accessing memory, and for recall
Wis == for comprehension, understanding how bits and pieces fit together
Will == determination, grit, pushing oneself beyond normal boundries
Con == toughness, stamina, abiltiy to absorb physical punishment
Dex == fine motor control, the use of tools
Spd == reaction speed, reflexes

Going back to our Archery skill...

A GM could use Archery+Perception+Wis to find a weak spot in a a dragon's armor (think of Smaug's missing scale), and the best way to hit it.
Archery+Dex for actually attempting to hit that spot...

For a contest, the GM might use Archery+Dex for a general accuracy contest; or perhaps Archery+Speed for a contest that involves pop-up targets of some sort (i.e. first to react and shoot - the right targets - wins..

It is how the situation is described that I think will be important...

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 10, 2014, 01:46:51 PM

One of the conversations that I had with the players over the weekend was that they really wanted to keep the "skill bloat" in check. And, having been playing a dice pool game as of late, they liked the idea of an independent skills system. I think I can manage to shrink the skills list a little too by taking this approach....some Lore skills will be rolled right into other skills for example.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 10, 2014, 05:08:42 PM

Right, any craft or profession type skills should not only include the skills required to do the job, but the lore behind it as well....

Also, the way you are handling spells, you will only need 1 magic skill, (recommend Magecraft -- because I think it sounds cooler...)

And on further reflection, up above I mentioned the idea of including something along the lines of skill trees.....

Here would be my first suggestion for a skill list....

Acrobatics

Athletics

Bluff

Combat Skills

Melee
Missile
Thrown
Unarmed

Crafts

Healing

Influence

Locks

Lore

Magecraft

Perception

Performing Arts

Riding

Stealth

Streetwise

Survival

Tracking

Traps

Trickery

[b]Melee[/b]	[b]Missile[/b]	[b]Thrown[/b]	[b]Unarmed[/b]
Axes & Hammers Chains Plus Clubs Great Blades Heavy Blades Light Blades Pole Arms Short Blades Spears Staves** Sword & Board (requires Heavy Blades) Two Weapon Combo (requires Light/heavy Blades)	Archery (requires Bows) Bows Crossbows Slings	Thrown Axes & Hammers Thrown Blades Thrown Spears	Brawling Boxing Martial Arts Sanju (requires Martial Arts) Wrestling

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 10, 2014, 07:38:54 PM

also had a thought --

with an independent skill system like this, it would be easy to set things up for handling cross-genre relatively easily...

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 10, 2014, 08:25:07 PM

Yes it would- have you ever read the MiniSix Rules? http://www.antipaladingames.com/

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 10, 2014, 08:26:51 PM

I have combined tracking & survival into Outdoorsman & Traps & Locks into Thievery?

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 11, 2014, 12:57:53 AM

Yes it would- have you ever read the MiniSix Rules? http://www.antipaladingames.com/

No, I haven't, but I can see that I may need to...

I have combined tracking & survival into Outdoorsman & Traps & Locks into Thievery?

Not too sure about Outdoorsman, but I like that Thievery one, and I also like the fact that you can actually have skills that overlap in some manner in some cases (ie such as Craft:Locksmith could be used to pick locks just as Thievery could)....

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: Zut on July 11, 2014, 05:52:28 AM

LOL- well its a good thing you're an experienced editor too then (http:///bigsmile.gif)

That's not much, I mean I had to actually look for the typos, it's not as if they "jumped" to my eyes. (http:///smile.gif)Anyway, about the ideas presented in this thread, I find them very interesting. Maybe they could be a part of a future Libram Novus? This way they could get some more general playtesting. I like the idea of "independant skills" and merging the Lore subskills with their appropriate skill(s). I think that Lore would still be needed, like for obscure or History knowledge.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: Fidoric on July 11, 2014, 08:54:52 AM

Regarding the skill list above, I think we can make it more compact:

- Combine Athletics and Acrobatics in one Athletics skill, the difference between those skill will be made by which stat is used (Str, Con or Spd)
- Combine Bluff and Influence --> Influence
- Combine Locks, Traps and Trickery (and Streetwise ?) --> Thievery (if you consider streetwise as the "lore" side of thievery , it could be a Int + Thievery skill)
- Combine Tracking and Survival -->Survival (Outdoor), that skill could cover outdoor traps too.
- Use your first combat skill option to reduce the number of combat skills overall (with maybe some further reduction of specialties, for example axes & hammers could include clubs too for basically they are used in the same way: a handle with a heavy business end). Weapon categories should be established according to how the weapons are used rather than how they look (your axes & hammers is a very good example as is the suggestion to combine staves, spears and polearms).

The list could be:

Athletics - swimming, running, lifting, perhaps climbing can be included here as well, to show off different type (str vs agility), jumps and rolls and swinging and climbing
Combat Skills - Four types of combat skills (Melee, Missile, Thrown, Unarmed)
Crafts - each craft includes all all skills to do the job and the lore behind it
Healing - encompasses First Aid and more involved types of things such as surgery at higher levels of ability (it could be blended into the Crafts skill but I can see it be a defining skill so maybe it can be left on its own).
Influence - This is the skill of negotiation and trade, of knowing how to use bribery and of making treaties and so forth
Lore - Must be specialized into at least a broad category (i.e. Dragon Lore, Demon/Devil Lore, etc..., can be used to cover all sorts of skill gaps
Magecraft - for all things magical, including casting of spells
Perception - skill in noticing what is around you...
Performing Arts - maybe rename to Play Instruments since Bluff now covers Acting... would perhaps specialize by type of instrument (i.e. horns, drums, stringed, woodwinds)
Riding - as before
Stealth - As before
Survival - covers previous Survival and Tracking and Outdoor trapping
Thievery - This is sleight of hand type trickery only, picking locks and disarming traps, streetwise....

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on July 11, 2014, 01:45:11 PM

Okay.... so going with Fidoric's suggest (and with me playing with some slight fiddling bits... as always...)

That gives the following....

Athletics

Combat, Melee

Combat, Missile

Combat, Thrown

Combat, Unarmed

Crafts

Healing

Influence

Lore

Magecraft

Outdoorsman

Perception

Performing Arts

Riding

Stealth

Thievery

[b]Melee[/b]	[b]Missile[/b]	[b]Thrown[/b]	[b]Unarmed[/b]
Bashers* Chains Plus Great Blades Heavy Blades Light Blades Pole Arms Short Blades Sword & Board* Two Weapon Combo****	Archery Crossbows Slings	Thrown Axes & Hammers Thrown Blades Thrown Spears	Brawling (no specialty required) Boxing Martial Arts Sanju (requires Martial Arts) Wrestling
* = includes Axes, Hammers, Maces, Clubs, Batons, War Hammers, and any other short-hafted weapons with a fixed head. = includes Staves, Spears, Short Spears, Pole Arms and Pole Axes * = requires Specialty in Light, Short, or Heavy Blade **** = requires proficiency in primary weapon's group, secondary weapon cannot be larger than Tiny if primary weapon is Medium or Large, and Not larger than the primary weapon if primary weapon is Tiny or Small.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 11, 2014, 02:02:59 PM

I like the approach of developing a single melee skill and allowing Warriors to use Talent Points, or perhaps a Class Talent, that gives them a further bonus to a particular skill. It is a game; and because I am trying to narrow the options we do have to be flexible with where a character will be in 2-3 levels. If said warrior uncovers a Magic Mace and has specialized in Sword the whole time the mace is useless to him/her. If is level 3 and has +3 with all melee weapons and a further +1 with Swords then its not such a big step back for him/her to decide to wield the mace.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 11, 2014, 02:42:27 PM

Actually, this conversation on skills got me thinking to one of my better home-brew games:

The game was a mixed dice system that used 4 A's: Archetype, Attributes, Abilities, & Aptitudes
The Archetype is a whatever you call your character- Elven Archer for example.
There are 4 Attributes: Agility, Brawn, Intellect, Psyche
4 Abilities: Athletics, Awareness, Influence, Knowledge
4 Aptitudes: Arcana, Combat, Thievery, Survival
Essentially every roll you might need in a game can be covered using 1 Attribute and 1 Ability or Aptitude.

You allocated dice pools of D10, D8, D6, D4 to Attributes: D8, D6, D6, D4 to Abilties, and D10, D6, D4, D2 to Aptitudes.

Your Archertype starts at a D4 and you can pick 2 Specific Skills that you can spend a Legend Point to add your Dice to.

So our Archer might look like this:

Elven Archer: D4 (Bow, Tracking)

AG-D10 ATH-D6 ARC- D2
BR-D8 AWR-D8 COM-D10
IN-D6 INF-D4 THV-D4
PSY-D4 KNW-D6 SRV- D6

So, to roll an attack the Archer would roll D10+D10 with his bow, and if he really wanted to make sure he hit- he could spend a legnd point and add his Archetype Dice of a D4

A tracking Roll would be D6+D6 and also could have a D4 added to it.

A Lift Roll would be D8+D6, and Acrobatics roll D10+D6....etc...its quite easy to mix and match.

All rolls made against TNs 5, 7, 9, 11, 12

Anyway, the point is that you can trim the "skills" down quite a bit- we used this to play a Pulp Actin game where the characters were agents trying to thwart plans to explode an airship over Ottawa (where I live) during WWII....quite fun.

Anyway- just some thoughts

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on July 11, 2014, 08:11:58 PM

I totally got nothing done today- well, except for actual work

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on August 26, 2014, 03:40:13 PM

Okay..... As I said in that other thread, I had a minor epiphany -- it came from your comment about "characters getting better at what they do"

First thing I think that I think I need to point out is that your progression table for each character IS actually the same (the only difference, I suppose would be the Spell Points (and I noticed some minor differences in the talent Points).

You could create a universal progression table and have it apply in to all the classes equally. If a class gets an extra talent point at first level, give it to him in the class description. The same with Spell Points, +2 Spell Points per level or +1 Spell Point per level. This way these modifiers stack or build upon what you have in that universal table.

The problem you still run into is Combat skills (and perhaps spell casting as well).

Put them in separate sections from the skills....
Unfortunately, with only 4 combat skills, you still fall into the problem of ALL weapons being equally useful, and thus no all combat oriented classes will look too similar...

I still strongly suggest going with proficiencies.... But he is a new twist on them...

In the combat section, mark the 4 combat skills as Favored, Standard or Restricted -- and then give the proficiencies.... Any proficiency that is NOT known, is treated as one progression type less...

For example, your Fighter as the Short Blades and Spears proficiencies (and Combat: Melee is a Favored Skill). This would mean that Great Blades and heavy Blades would use the Standard progression -- They still get to use all weapons out there, but they just aren't quite as good (and this is better than saying Half Bonus for them).

And for those who have the Combat Skills as Standard skills, this means that all unknown proficiencies would fall into the Restricted Column...

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on August 26, 2014, 04:37:52 PM

I totally understand what you are saying- when I originally started playing with a linear progression table I had 5 skill groups:
Arcane, Combat, General, Survival, Thievery. I think i sent you a 2d6 version that better demonstrated it....I'll see if I can dig that up again.

As for proficiencies- I basically decided that you could pick a skill focus at level 1 and get a +1 bonus to it for your primary skill group- so, a swordsman could pikc +1 to Sword and start at +2 Combat with sword, and +1 combat with all other weapons at level 1. This worked very well actually

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on August 26, 2014, 04:42:43 PM

I will try and update my Old School Hack and post it later- as I believe this is part of the problem too. I am probably working off of an updated draft adn haven't actually showed it to you Tim...LOL

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on August 26, 2014, 04:55:34 PM

Yeah, that does make it harder when we are basing discussions off two different sets of core assumptions..

(http:///bigsmile.gif)

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on August 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

Such is my brain in recent months

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on August 27, 2014, 06:01:29 PM

So, I reviewed the Old School Hack yesterday. I think I am going to strip away a good chunk of the skill development and shrink the TN range to 11-13-15-17-19. I am leaning towards making it a more "stat" driven system.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on August 27, 2014, 07:30:48 PM

cannot wait to see!!!

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 29, 2015, 07:54:24 PM

OK, totally started to dabble with this again- and I have a regular and willing cohort I believe. I am going to re-read these threads and start revising my documents again.

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Rasyr on June 29, 2015, 09:28:23 PM

I know the feeling... I recently started dabbling with the FX rules as well.. heheh -- Perhaps I ought to think about posting them someplace

Title: NOVUS Old School Hack
Post by: imported_Witchking20k on June 30, 2015, 02:52:16 PM

I have decided to stick with my original vision of a very stream-lined game with linear development in skills and stats. I've picked up a few ideas over the last few months that I think will work out quite well. Ultimately- I think I just want to finish it. I know it spurred a lot of the thoughts that led to the NOVUS revision- but, it's intention was to be a rules-lite game based on the NOVUS dice rolling that could be used for one-off sessions and classic dungeon crawling. For me (career with 2 kids and limited time) I need a go to game that paints with broad brush strokes so I can maximize the time I have. After I am done reviewing these threads I think you could probably remove them Tim.....less clutter- and I'll end up posting the revised version anyway.

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