General Magic Questions

[Falcon]

Next weekend I'm GMing my first One Shot with Novus. While time is running out, there are still some questions - in this case with the magic system - that I can't figure out myself.

Casting Spells:
p. 72 states you can pre-select a casting option but have to pay the Fatigue cost regardless if the spell suceeds or not. But you can also select the option AFTER rolling if you reach the TN and can (and want to) pay the fatigue cost, but you don't have to. Also on p.75 it states you do not lose any Fatigue in a spell failure.
So what's the benefit of pre-selecting the option? Why would anyone ever choose to pre-select an option?

Attack Spells:
p. 73 So this is a huge problem. I can not for the life of me understand the passage about arc spells, especially "Ranged Arc". I'm not even sure where to begin:

...each additional 45° of arc allows it to strike up to 2 or more adjacent foes.
On p. 72 it states Arc allows to attack any foes in a 45°,5´ area, so two of them in it? Or does the restriction only take effect with Ranged Arc?
The extra arcs do not need to be in line, they could reverse direction, allowing for a more S-like or jagged path.
What do you mean by "in line"`? As I understand these are cone like shapes, so where is the point of origin from each arc to put them in line? Is in line something like < < < < < ?
..With this option (which option, Ranged Arc? there's a paragraph before that!), the Arc could also travel straight out from the caster
I thought they do that anyway like p. 72 explains ("...in front or beside the character").
the target could be within 5´ of the caster, with the second behind him at 10´ and a third behind him at 15´...
If I would draw a line to each of these foes the range would be 25´, not 15´ (you have to go 5´ forward than 15´ in the opposite direction behind the caster, than 5´ to the third target). Or do you not draw a line at all? On the same page (p.73) it states the foes have to be within 5´ of each other, but in this example they are not.
I guess with +10´ range you have like 3 cone shaped areas that I can each place around the caster up to 15´ away. But that contradicts basically every rule before that.
so, my overall question is... uh.. Help?!

[Rasyr]

Next weekend I'm GMing my first One Shot with Novus. While time is running out, there are still some questions - in this case with the magic system - that I can't figure out myself.

Casting Spells:
p. 72 states you can pre-select a casting option but have to pay the Fatigue cost regardless if the spell suceeds or not. But you can also select the option AFTER rolling if you reach the TN and can (and want to) pay the fatigue cost, but you don't have to. Also on p.75 it states you do not lose any Fatigue in a spell failure.
So what's the benefit of pre-selecting the option? Why would anyone ever choose to pre-select an option?

Good point (and amazing nobody noticed that... hehehe... )To fix this, I would simply say that Casting Options selected AFTER casting cannot change the basic form of the spell, only enhance the existing effects (i.e. range, # of targets for a non-directed spell, etc).

For exanple, the Arc works a bit like a scythe, where a bolt would be mroe like an arrow.  You can cast the Spell, and roll well, you can increase the range on the arc, but not turn it into a bolt.

Attack Spells:
p. 73 So this is a huge problem. I can not for the life of me understand the passage about arc spells, especially "Ranged Arc". I'm not even sure where to begin:

...each additional 45° of arc allows it to strike up to 2 or more adjacent foes.
On p. 72 it states Arc allows to attack any foes in a 45°,5´ area, so two of them in it? Or does the restriction only take effect with Ranged Arc?

Think of the Arc as a scythe, or a slashing attack that can attack multiple foes within a limited range. At its basic version, it can attack 2 people within a 45 degree arc who are within 5' of the caster (maybe think of  Moe slapping Curly and Larry, when they are standing side-by side).

The extra arcs do not need to be in line, they could reverse direction, allowing for a more S-like or jagged path.
What do you mean by "in line"`? As I understand these are cone like shapes, so where is the point of origin from each arc to put them in line? Is in line something like < < < < < ?

Ok, so 2 arcs would be 90 degrees or a quarter of a circle and from point of origin (i.e. the first target) it would be more like /\/\ (that being 4 arcs) ( I will see if I can work up some sort of visual representation)

..With this option (which option, Ranged Arc? there's a paragraph before that!), the Arc could also travel straight out from the caster
I thought they do that anyway like p. 72 explains ("...in front or beside the character").

Maybe I was trying to over explain....

There are two common problems when writing... SOmetimes writers do not explain things well enough and sometimes they over explain, and end up confusing the matter....

the target could be within 5´ of the caster, with the second behind him at 10´ and a third behind him at 15´...
If I would draw a line to each of these foes the range would be 25´, not 15´ (you have to go 5´ forward than 15´ in the opposite direction behind the caster, than 5´ to the third target). Or do you not draw a line at all? On the same page (p.73) it states the foes have to be within 5´ of each other, but in this example they are not.
I guess with +10´ range you have like 3 cone shaped areas that I can each place around the caster up to 15´ away. But that contradicts basically every rule before that.
so, my overall question is... uh.. Help?!

Ok let's take theses images, each hex is 5' (yes, they are very rough...) hehehe

First up is before the arc is cast.

 

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Now this second one is casting a basic Arc spell (up to 2 targets within a 45 degree arc) -- note that he could have done the two on the lef, or the two on the right, or the closest one on the left and the backk on on the right (the opposite would not work cause he was too far away)

 

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Now on this third one, a second 45 degree arc is added. It only gets one additional foe because the other one is NOT in a straight line from the end of the first one... Now that third foe that gets hit? The attack roll gets a -1 to it cause he is more than 5' from the caster

 

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Now this one is for foes at range, and it has three 45 degree arcs I have also included the attack roll modifiers for distance (note one roll is made against all foes, and then this modifier is applied to it according to their distance)

 

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does this help clarify things?

[Falcon]

Thx for the effort, this clears things up, I hope. Enough to give it a try. I think it has something to do with the writing style I can't get through.
[As a side note; I also play a lot of board games, tabletops and wargames and am used to read rules word by word. I bet a visualization with the arcs in it would absolutely make it clear.]

I understand now that you add up additional Arcs adjacent to their flanks (like you said: \//\\//\), so this clarifies the "straight line out from the caster". Two paragraphs before that it says "they do not need to be in a line".
Ok, so both is true (that's why the part "it could ALSO travel straight.." was so confusing). I get now how to make a S-like shape or part of a circle (even a complete circle).

As a point of origin you simply choose one any of the tips of the "arc".

It will be interesting to see how this plays out at the table. I probably need cut-out shapes of paper for that in fringe cases.





I just now get he example with the three targets in the book. The example in the rule book is layed out as follows:
p.73: So, using this option, the first target could be within 5’ of the caster, with the second one behind him at 10’ and a ..
I read "behind him" as "behind the caster", so like  F · C · · F · F     (F=foe, C=caster) so this obviously couldn't work out . "behind the target" would've avoided the confusion on this part but I can also blame it on myself.

[Rasyr]

Thx for the effort, this clears things up, I hope. Enough to give it a try. I think it has something to do with the writing style I can't get through.
[As a side note; I also play a lot of board games, tabletops and wargames and am used to read rules word by word. I bet a visualization with the arcs in it would absolutely make it clear.]

I understand now that you add up additional Arcs adjacent to their flanks (like you said: \//\\//\), so this clarifies the "straight line out from the caster". Two paragraphs before that it says "they do not need to be in a line".
Ok, so both is true (that's why the part "it could ALSO travel straight.." was so confusing). I get now how to make a S-like shape or part of a circle (even a complete circle).

As a point of origin you simply choose one any of the tips of the "arc".

It will be interesting to see how this plays out at the table. I probably need cut-out shapes of paper for that in fringe cases.

Definitely will be adding in those visualization (better than the quick and dirty versions above) in Libram Arcanis whne I rewrite those sections for clarity.

I just now get he example with the three targets in the book. The example in the rule book is layed out as follows:
p.73: So, using this option, the first target could be within 5’ of the caster, with the second one behind him at 10’ and a ..
I read "behind him" as "behind the caster", so like  F · C · · F · F     (F=foe, C=caster) so this obviously couldn't work out . "behind the target" would've avoided the confusion on this part but I can also blame it on myself.

Ah! Yeahs, I was talking more like C -F-F-F

Perhaps changing

So, using this option, the first target could be within 5’ of the caster, with the second one behind him at 10’ and a third one behind him at 15’, or it could be against 3 foes who are side by side with all of them standing 15’ from the caster.

TO

So, using this option, the first target could be within 5’ of the caster, with the second one behind the first foe at 10’ and a third one behind the second foe at 15’, or it could be against 3 foes who are side by side with all of them standing 15’ from the caster.

I have added this to the FAQ page as well.

[Rasyr]

Casting Spells:
p. 72 states you can pre-select a casting option but have to pay the Fatigue cost regardless if the spell suceeds or not. But you can also select the option AFTER rolling if you reach the TN and can (and want to) pay the fatigue cost, but you don't have to. Also on p.75 it states you do not lose any Fatigue in a spell failure.
So what's the benefit of pre-selecting the option? Why would anyone ever choose to pre-select an option?

Just had a thought about this for Libram Arcanis. One thing that I can do is to mark the Casting Options  with a symbol of some sort to mark those options which must be selected before casting (and which cannot be chosing after casting).

[Rasyr]

Does this read easier?

Arc Spells

An Arc spell creates an attack that is an arc of magical energy or substance as conjured by the spell. This attack will hit any foes within a 45° arc of one another, either in front of or beside the caster, as long as the first target is within 5’ of the caster. Only one attack roll is made and its results are used against any foes within range of the attack. The Casting Option, Increase Arc, allows the caster to create a bigger arc, allowing him to attack more foes.

Each additional 45° of arc allows it to strike up to 2 more adjacent foes, as long as the first of the new targets is adjacent to the last of previous arc’s targets. The extra arcs do not need to be in line with the previous section of arc, they could change or even reverse direction, allowing for a more jagged  or even an an S-like path.

The Casting Option, Ranged Arc, allows the attack to strike foes further from the caster, so long as those foes are adjacent (within 5’ of each other), and nobody else is between the caster and the first target of the Arc attack.

The arc attack does become weaker, the further the caster sends it. Beyond the 5’ closest to the caster, the attack receives a -1 for every additional 5’ of distance from the caster.

With the option, Ranged Arc, the Arc could also travel straight out from the caster. For example, this Casting Option grants +10’ to the range of the spell but reduces the overall damage by 2 Hits. So, using this option, the first target could be within 5’ of the caster, with the second one behind the first target at 10’and a third one behind that second one at 15’, or it could be against 3 foes who are side by side with all of them standing a maximum of 15’ from the caster. The -1 per 5’ of distance would apply as well.

The Casting Option, Bolt Attack, allows the caster to shoot a 1” diameter bolt of the attack substance out to a range of 50’ to strike at a single target. The caster can also increase the range of this attack more easily than he can the Arc Attack. This bolt attack does not suffer the same range penalties as the arc, but would use the modifiers based upon the Range Increments table (p. 20), except that the full range of the spell would be treated as Long range (there would be no Max Range for these spells).

[Fidoric]

Seems clear to me. Then again, the previous version did not bother me. I guess I have become fluent in Rasyr. 

[Falcon]

Personally, I would try to get rid of all those foes and targets and would only describe the area that is affected:
45° shapes that you can place adjacent to each other as a group. With range you can place that group of arcs farther away. Needs free LOS. Everyone in those area gets affected.
That's what I get from the text with the info I have from the sketches.

Just my opinion, other seem to understand it.
I would like to test the text on my unbiased pedantic players and hear what they say 


[ In the end it's hard to judge without knowing the original thoughts.
For example, I read that with an additional arc you ...can strike up to 2 more adjacent foes,. So even if between 45° there are more than 2 beings (someone is lying on the floor, or is very small, or someone is flying, how high does the arc even reach? etc.), I can only ever strike two of them with the additional arc. This could be true, but it could also be my interpretation.]

[Rasyr]

Personally, I would try to get rid of all those foes and targets and would only describe the area that is affected:
[ In the end it's hard to judge without knowing the original thoughts.
For example, I read that with an additional arc you ...can strike up to 2 more adjacent foes,. So even if between 45° there are more than 2 beings (someone is lying on the floor, or is very small, or someone is flying, how high does the arc even reach? etc.), I can only ever strike two of them with the additional arc. This could be true, but it could also be my interpretation.]

When we first come up with the idea for the arc spell, the  visualization that we used was "swiping one's arm  (like swinging a stick or how Moe from the 3 Stooges slaps Curly and Larry when they stand beside one another).

Ok, another take.....

Arc Spells

An Arc spell creates an attack that is an arc of magical energy or substance as conjured by the spell. This attack will hit up to two foes within 5' of the caster who are adjacent to one another.  Only a single attack roll is made by the player and this result is then applied against any foes hit by the spell.

The Casting Option, Increase Arc, allows up to two more foes to be hit, so long as one of them is also adjacent to the second foe struck by the initial arc. For every full 5' from the caster that a target is, the attack gets an additional -1 to its total before it is applied against a given foe.

The Casting Option, Ranged Arc, allows the arc to make its initial attack against a foe who up to an additional 10' from the caster. This Casting Option also reduces the maximum amount of Base Damage done by 2 Hits each time it applied. THe caster must have a clear line of sight to the initial target of the arc(s).

The Casting Option, Bolt Attack, allows the caster to shoot a 1” diameter bolt of the attack substance out to a range of 50’ to strike at a single target. The caster can also increase the range of this attack more easily than he can the basic Arc attack. This bolt attack does not suffer the same range penalties as the arc, but would use range modifiers based upon the Range Increments table ( core rules, p. 58). A range of 50' is treated as a Range Increment of 20, and each additional 50' increases the Range Increment by 10.

This way it is more like a "chain lightning" type spell....

Here is a new example (both a screenshot, and a PDF of the page from the manuscript I am working on.

 

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[Falcon]

I think it's way better now, also shorter. 

I also understood the arc as a "swing of a stick" but that let me think of it as a shape like a  wegde - and so as an "area of effect" - and so needed to place the point of origin (the "stick").
Showed the original version to an unbiased friend. He thought of it as a chain-lightning but couldn't make any sense of the 45°. My guess is the term arc may be too ambiguous in combination with some descriptions.

I don't know why the spell had to be that way, never seen a RPG spell with so many prerequisites but now I have a notion of how to use it a the table. I hope.

[Rasyr]

I think it's way better now, also shorter. 

I also understood the arc as a "swing of a stick" but that let me think of it as a shape like a  wegde - and so as an "area of effect" - and so needed to place the point of origin (the "stick").
Showed the original version to an unbiased friend. He thought of it as a chain-lightning but couldn't make any sense of the 45°. My guess is the term arc may be too ambiguous in combination with some descriptions.

I don't know why the spell had to be that way, never seen a RPG spell with so many prerequisites but now I have a notion of how to use it a the table. I hope.

I used the term "arc" basically in the same way you would describe an "an arc of electricity" jumping between two conductors. And the whole 45 degree thing was meant to prevent it from being used on foes on opposite sides or who are too far from one another (a 45 degree arc is also 1/8 of a circle)


I still need to tweak the spells slightly to remove the 45 degree bits in the Casting Options.

And one of the main reasons for adding this was to get spell users a close in attack (similar to swinging a sword (or stick), and it evolved from there.....)

Originally, I had only one spell which did everything (bolt, ball, cone attacks), but the base costs were too high, hence trying to break it down like we did

Also did not want to do "touch foe to deliver attack" since that has always bothered me in D&D-type games cause there were never rules for how to deliver a touch attack (versus an unarmed attack) and how they differed.

So this one still uses the Targeting skill to make the attack roll (which is separate from the casting roll!!)

hehe it was meant to be more versatile, not more confusing.. hehehe Thanks for helping me simplify it.

[Falcon]

@"an arc of electricity"

Then my friend was right on track. It kind of makes sense because we have the radius (5 ft.) and the angle, so also the radian measure (the arc).

the spectacle is important of course but it's so hard to measure a curve on a battlemat with miniatures (many players use it) and also so hard to just imagine who gets hit without minis that I don't think its worth the effort to make it a 45°arc.

But it's a good idea to keep the mage in close combat. Don't get rid of it.

Imho, gameplay-wise a line (or zig-zag) made of straight 5ft. segments with just the description of it as an 45° arc, bow, lightning (whatever) would be the best of two worlds. Very easy to describe with all the atmosphere kept intact.

I'm always happy to help optimize RPG rules.
and I'm completely on board with the touch attack. It's awfully handled in most RPGs.