Hit locations

[Rasyr]

I am working on a more detailed money/equipment system for Novus 2e (mainly for Anwyn, which will include among other things details such a monthly incomes and more detailed equipement.


One such feature of this is more detailed armor rules. Now granted, this is all in its infancy, and I am taking heavy inspiration from others who have done similar.

One aspect is that for armors, each piece of armor may cover one or more specific spots. Another aspect is that there could be a Hit Location based damage adjustments as well. (just a glimmer of an idea here)....

In any case, here is my hit location image.

 

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[Rasyr]

Using the above, we can work out the following percentages of coverage andgo witht he total AR of full suits, we get the following table.

 

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UB and AB include the back of those regions as well

Now, going from this, we could then have something like a Chain Hauberk that covers the body and arms and even covers hips and groin

Chain Hauberk Covers Sh (0.4), UB (2.5), Ab (2.5), Ua (0.6), El (0.2), Fo (0.4), Hp (1), Gr (0.1)
That gives us a total bonus of 7.7 (which rounds off to 8, which is equal to the AR of a Chain torso and greaves.

[Rasyr]

Now, I haven't gotten very far with Hit Location rules, but I have still been working on that table from my last post, and I am working on what amounts to Armor by the Piece, or Custom Armor rules.

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Basically, you would determine what coverage your armor has, and then that would determine the cost
Soft Leather   6 cp per % of coverage
Reinforced Leather   15 cp per % of coverage
Chain   26 cp per % of coverage
Scale   38 cp per % of coverage
Plate   74 cp per % of coverage

So, you were to make a soft leather jacket that covered the Shoulders, Upper Arms, Elbows, Forearms, Upper Body and Abdomen (these last two include the back as well) That would give us total of 0.54 coverage (54%)

Sh - 0.3
UA - 0.3
El - 0.24
Fo - 0.24
UB - 1.08
Ab - 1.08
-------------
Total 3.24, which then rounds off to 3 AR (same as the Soft Leather). However the cost under this new system would be 54 x 6 (cp) = 324 cp, OR 3 sp, 2 bp & 4 cp, but a merchant would easily round that up to 33 bp, or perhaps even 35 bp to allow for the costs of fittings and adjust it to the wearer.

In fact, I have been reqorking the prices of everything in preparation for expanding the pricing rules (and equipment lists for Anwyn). In reworking these prices, the costs of many things will change and be more consistent (I think). The costs of many weapons will actually go down (wooden weapon prices will go up however).

But I would like a little feedback on what you think about this so far.

Here is what the new weapon costs would look like

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These prices are more in line with a society where a week's wages for an adventurer/fighter would be 1 silver (plus any upkeep)

[Falcon]

beware, honest feedback:

I personally don't need the cost of equipment in a range of +/- 1cp in a game where basically all prices are made up and don't seem to be based on (fantasy) economics. It's good to have prices that "work out" though, if it's exact on 1cp I use it of course, so it all depends on the pricing system as a whole.

But I probably would never ever use a hit location system in a classic RPG combat again. Never seen such a system that didn't take out all the momentum of the combat (with very few exceptions that were basically story RPGs).  I don't even know how to give feedback on these numbers and how to know if a 0.01 modifier is "correct" or if it's more like 0.02 or 0.005.

I don't know what's coming to the system and maybe if there is a genius way of managing a dozen combatants with 26 locations each without loosing a second of game time - or maybe for very, VERY important duels - then yes, but in all other cases I just don't see the benefit (that's not so say wounds on certain locations can't exist).

[Rasyr]

beware, honest feedback:

Which is what I look for... Not every idea I have will be a good one. I have abandoned several in the past, and incorporated ideas suggested by or inspired by comments of others in the past.  Talking back an forth helps sparks ideas.......

I personally don't need the cost of equipment in a range of +/- 1cp in a game where basically all prices are made up and don't seem to be based on (fantasy) economics. It's good to have prices that "work out" though, if it's exact on 1cp I use it of course, so it all depends on the pricing system as a whole.

Oh, I am sorry if I was not clear. What I did was look at another system (that uses farthings, pence, shillings, etc) and broke down the prices that they used to the smallest denomination used (farthings) and treated that as coppers, and then am rebuilding the prices using the current monetary system in Novus (10:1 ratio for each denomination and the next higher) Copper > Bronze>Silver> Gold> Platinum -- and it turns out that copper/bronze are the  defacto standards.  I am still tweaking costs a little herer and there. Essentially, I am taking a more realistic/quasi-historic system and using it as the basis for repricing things (which lowers the costs of many armors and weapons, but raises a few other costs).

I am also adding more equipment and items to the price lists as well. As I am mainly working on this for the Anwyn, which will have more economics in it (for those who like those styles of game, it will also fit for political and even simple monster-hunter games, or a mix of styles). But I want the costs to be more realistic overall (there is nothing wrong with the current costs (some are high, some are low, based on historal costs the way I am converting them over

But I probably would never ever use a hit location system in a classic RPG combat again. Never seen such a system that didn't take out all the momentum of the combat (with very few exceptions that were basically story RPGs).  I don't even know how to give feedback on these numbers and how to know if a 0.01 modifier is "correct" or if it's more like 0.02 or 0.005.

Likely most would not. However, the idea of the hit locations DOES help in "Called Shots" (where you have a player trying to use a bow to shoot a blade out of a foe's hand - type of thing). Now, I already have some basic guidelines written up, but this would allow for refining those rules better on my part. But You are right , so other than summarzing the final results for called shots, I will unlikely be including anything very in-depth regarding hit locations (i.e. I would do something like called shots -->

Neck: -5 AB, +2 Bleeding, +1 Major Wound;
Hands: -10 AB, drops held items, broken bones (Major Wound), unable to hold anything until healed)
etc...

Beta versions of the rules also include alternative ARs for Helms, Bracers and Greaves based on thier construction, but only against Called Shots

or something along those lines....

But the biggest benefit would be to allow for the customizing of armor, including layered armors, and  so forth, to more than just " I wear reinforced leather armor"
As for that table...

The frist 2 columns are the body locations and the percentages covered (i.e. Forearms = 4% of the total potential coverage for armor.
The SL, RL, Ch, SC and Pl columns are the current armor types with the numbers beneath (at the top, next to "Total AR" are the AR numbers if wearing the given type of armor, plus Helm, bracers and greaves (these 3 items add +3 AR overall). so the columns below that are what the actual AR bonuses would be, based on the armor worn (gives more flexibility to players....

So basic armor of any given type essentially covers (Shoulders, Upper Arms, Upper Body, Abdomen, Groin, and Hips which equals 58% of the body
a Full Suit (including the equivalent of helm, braces, and greaves) would covers 95% usually

But the armors given, plus helm, braces, & greaves covers 77% on average, technically.

But I ramble.....

Getting back to the armor coverage
Our basic Reinforced Leather armor - under this new system -- would have an AR of the following
Shoulders:  +0.4
Upper Arms: +0.4
Upper Body: +1.44
Abdomen: +1.44
Groin: +0.24
Hips: +0.72

Total AR == 0.4+0.4+1.44+1.44+0.24+0.72 = 4.64, rounded off to 5 AR, which according to the table on page 39 of the Novus 2e rules, is the Amount of AR provided by Reinforced Leather Armor. And it would cost, according to my new rules (58% coverage x 15 cp  per % of coverage == 870 cp or 87 bp or 9 sp (again, rounding to simplify things). which is much less than the 30 sp such armor currently costs....

So, let's compare to a simple leather breastplate (which presumes a matching plate on the back), so that is 36% coverage according to our table, which means it gets a 2.88 AR, rounded to +3 AR overall, and it would cost 54 bp

Now say a character wanted to wear the leather breastplate over a chain shirt, that would give a total of +9 (+2.88 Boiled Leather + 5.8 chain =  8.68, rounded to 9) AR, but it would also give anywhere from -3 to -6 to  all actions (+ another -1 for doubling armors, so -4 to -7 total) in Penalties.

(note: in this new system, Chain would be +6 AR, not +7)

As I was saying, this allows for flexibility and  once play begins, it would likely not become an issue, since all the math should already be done

I hope that all makes sense....

I don't know what's coming to the system and maybe if there is a genius way of managing a dozen combatants with 26 locations each without loosing a second of game time - or maybe for very, VERY important duels - then yes, but in all other cases I just don't see the benefit (that's not so say wounds on certain locations can't exist).

See my comments regarding Called Shots above   

[Falcon]

Imho, a quasi-realistic approach to pricing does make GMing easier, so its a good decision first of all.
In contrast, in games like D&D the coherence of the game world pretty fast goes downhill when players start to destabilize/ buy complete Kingdoms with all the gold they looted from dungeons.

On the other hand the realistic prices and incomes (say buying a sword or a horse only affordable [and useful] for higher social classes in medieval times) often don't affect the players. Either they're playing at a "street level", like a peasant, so all the special items don't enter play anyway or they're some special lot (aristocrats, knights etc.) in which case almost all mundane items (provisions for example) don't really matter anymore and it's obsolete whether an Item cost 1 or 2 CP. That's a problem in all highly unequal game world societies.
I see those systems as a tool for the GM to emulate the world, not directly for the players to go shopping.
Availability is a much more important attribute of an RPG item than cost in my opinion.



I think called shots would be a very good idea. They work well in Savage Worlds which itself is a pretty rules-lite classic RPG.
But I think the existing 4 locations (Head, Toros, Arms, Legs) in Novus are detailled enough. Most of my players wouldn't want to make all these calculations, even if it's one time (and everytime they change gear!)

I always compare such elements with other elements of the same system as everything should be on a comparable level of complextiy. So, I see a system with 26 labeled locations to take hits (of which I would say most people also know these locations without a system and could make rules with common sense) but on the other hand I can't find any helpful advice on how to deal with foraging (of which I know nothing about). Then I'm a bit frustrated to see where all the ressources seem to go into when other elements lack details.
That's just how I see it and in the end a matter of taste, of course. Just Like Rolemaster is that RPG with "all those random tables" one can of course make a game revolving around hit locations.

[Rasyr]

Imho, a quasi-realistic approach to pricing does make GMing easier, so its a good decision first of all.
In contrast, in games like D&D the coherence of the game world pretty fast goes downhill when players start to destabilize/ buy complete Kingdoms with all the gold they looted from dungeons.

Hence why I have already settled upon that 1 SP a week is a decent wage for adventurers.  for the second quickstart I am working on, I was just gonna have the PCs agree to give the boss (the guy who hired them) 1/4 of any coins found. Now, I am thinking that he will want reimbursement, and then anything found over that amount, he gets 1/4 of (since as I am looking, he is actually putting a lot of money into  the expidition..

On the other hand the realistic prices and incomes (say buying a sword or a horse only affordable [and useful] for higher social classes in medieval times) often don't affect the players. Either they're playing at a "street level", like a peasant, so all the special items don't enter play anyway or they're some special lot (aristocrats, knights etc.) in which case almost all mundane items (provisions for example) don't really matter anymore and it's obsolete whether an Item cost 1 or 2 CP. That's a problem in all highly unequal game world societies.

with the prices, PCs won't be buying things willy nilly unless a GM gives them a Monty Haul Campaign.. What I am looking for mainly is internal consistency on my part (I cannot control it once

I see those systems as a tool for the GM to emulate the world, not directly for the players to go shopping.
Availability is a much more important attribute of an RPG item than cost in my opinion.

ofr you, that may be true. For others, it may be different. I am trying to design for the widest appeal, while still maintaining some semblance of consistency (hence my obsessing over prices and such, as different folks want different types of adventures/games). Some folks may want to run a game where they are merchants, or spending time as merchants while they build up a stake for something else...

I think called shots would be a very good idea. They work well in Savage Worlds which itself is a pretty rules-lite classic RPG.
But I think the existing 4 locations (Head, Toros, Arms, Legs) in Novus are detailled enough. Most of my players wouldn't want to make all these calculations, even if it's one time (and everytime they change gear!)

Well, the equipment lists will have the basic items (player won't be left to design their own armors if they do not want to....), but others will want to, so I want to make sure the two extremes are considered. You are likely right about the Hit Locations, too many can be too confusing (Somebody once told me a about a study that was done that essentially said most folks tend to zone out after 5 choices....)

I always compare such elements with other elements of the same system as everything should be on a comparable level of complextiy. So, I see a system with 26 labeled locations to take hits (of which I would say most people also know these locations without a system and could make rules with common sense) but on the other hand I can't find any helpful advice on how to deal with foraging (of which I know nothing about). Then I'm a bit frustrated to see where all the ressources seem to go into when other elements lack details.
That's just how I see it and in the end a matter of taste, of course. Just Like Rolemaster is that RPG with "all those random tables" one can of course make a game revolving around hit locations.

Don't forget as well, that in designing things, I have to get into this nitty gritty before I can provide simplified rules as well. 

I have all those locations, but that is for general coverage of armor, but like I have said, I doubt that I will do more than 4 or 5 hit locations total, and even then only because the damage to the different locations can differ (i.e. Head shots increase Stuns, arm shots increase penalties to actions, leg shots increase penalties to movement type actions (and reduce overall movement), and body shots are where wounds come in...)

That works for me and allows for Called Shots in a simple method

I also like to talk things out, use you guys as a sounding board, and yes, this means I may throw out a lot of ideas that never end up going anywhere, or talking about a lots of stuff that I need to do for doing other things......

[Rasyr]

Ok, as mentioned before, I have decided not to go into detailed Hit locations, leaving it to just Body, head, arms, legs.

However, I have used the first two posts to rework armor a bit, and I wanted opinions on the results.

A Couple of things to note......

• The overall AR for a given suit of armor is based on the total AR of the current types of armor in the core rules. So this means that the end result will be comparable overall.
• Not every type of armor will cover everything.
• You can mix and match pieces. All modifiers are cumulative (i.e. wearing chain under a boiled leather breastplate simply combines the penalties and the AR modifiers)

Here are the armors (note: note everything is finalized yet)

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The "% Coverage" columns are there for informational purposes mainly right now"

[Falcon]

Ah going from more detail to less detail might be a good strategy, indeed.

Is the goal to have some sort of "game balance" where every option leads to an interesting decision or is it just to have some "realism" (some armor was better than everything else, so everyone used just that) ?
Probably a compromise I guess.


So, I don't know how you evaluated the single parameters and its hard to judge the "balance" but especially the gambeson seems to be insanely good. For just 1-2 AR less than most armors you have alsmost no disadvantage. Compare it to the boiled leather cuirass that comes with a load of penalties and is very heavy and even costs more on top of that. The plate cuirass even more so for just +1 AR and weighing even 3-times of the gambeson (and even has less coverage).

I understands that one can combine the armors so I assume it's probably meant to always have a gambeson beyond every armor (seems to be the most effective one on the list).


p.S.
Gambonson should be Gambeson iirc.

p.p.S.
from start I liked that most additional armor parts come with an impedance so that magic users have to balance protection vs. spell casting (most RPGs lack in this regard where you can just have one or the other). I would keep that the small parts all come with an impedance (like the core rulebook), the torso armors instead with a lttle less impedance so magic users have to decide how much they want to put on but that's still the case in most combinstions still.

[Rasyr]

Yeah, on the Gambeson (Yeah, I realized the spelling error AFTER I posted the pics hehe)

The general idea is to offer choices that allow for more interesting characters.  I want semi-realistic, but also as balanced as I can make it, so yeah, a bit of a compromise...

I am still tweaking those tables to balance things out (Had not realized that the Gambeson was better than soft leather armor.. heheh

have fixed it (Gambeson is now 2.5 AR, and the others have dropped accordingly...)

I will even be including guidelines for wearing overlapping torso (UB & AB) armors (i.e. a Gambeson and Chain Byrnie (get AR from both, but the combined Pen is increased by 1 (i.e. an additional -1, that training does not affect).

For the smaller locations, you only get the bonus from one item of it (thus putting plate bracers over leather ones only protects as the Plate (still some thinking to do on this one to make sure it all pans out...