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Author Topic: Rethinking "Firing into Melee"  (Read 553 times)

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imported_Rasyr

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Rethinking "Firing into Melee"
« on: February 08, 2012, 02:19:44 AM »
I read the post that Samwise made (from one of his players) and then thought about the off-hand comment I made in response...

Note that we originally discussed Firing into melee in this thread -- http://www.firehawkgames.biz/forum/index.php?topic=707.msg7149#msg7149  when somebody pointed out to me privately that I was missing rules for it --- and that initial post then morphed in this --> http://www.firehawkgames.biz/forum/index.php?topic=756.0 when I went to actually write the rules up....

And Samwise's player is correct, they ARE too complicated. But as in the second thread, there are problems with some other ways of trying it (such as including percentile rolls that I have worked hard to keep out) or having to arbitrarily assign percentages.

Now, as I said, I made an off-hand comment in response, but that got me thinking, what if it wasn't so off-hand actually

What if Firing into Melee worked as follows:




Firing Into Melee: Melee is a constant confusion of shifting bodies as the opponents move back and forth, to the left and right, all trying to gain the best position. Attempting to make a ranged attack into this confusion is very difficult at best, and potentially hazardous for people other than the target.

When a character fires into melee, he receives a -4 modifier to his attack roll. If the attack hits, it is resolved normally. If it misses, then all other potential targets within 5' of the path of the attack must make a Saving Throw vs. Spd, starting with those closest to the attacker and then moving outwards from there. The TN of this Save is the total sum of the attacker's roll and all modifiers, including range modifiers. If the character makes their Save, the attack missed them. If they fail their Save, they take double the Base Damage of the attack, but no Scaling Damage. This damage may be reduced by the AR of the character who was actually hit. Modifiers to the potential target's DEF, from a Shield or from Combat Moves that involve any type of Dodge are also applied ot the character's Saving Throw.




I think that keeps it simple and allows for a chance of all potential targets being hit without having to reroll the attack multiple times... And the "potential targets" are the ones who determine whether or not they were actually hit.

Samwise, can you check with your player -- to see what he thinks of this alternative?

Offline samwise7

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Rethinking "Firing into Melee"
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 04:36:40 AM »
deleted, look below.

Offline samwise7

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Rethinking "Firing into Melee"
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 04:39:49 AM »

I will pass it on to him.


If I was going to rewrite that I would write it as such:

Firing Into Melee: Melee is a constant confusion of shifting bodies as the opponents move back and forth, to the left and right, all trying to gain the best position. Attempting to make a ranged attack into this confusion is potentially hazardous for people other than the target.

If the attack hits, it is resolved normally.

If it misses, then all other potential targets within 5' of the path of the attack must make a Saving Throw vs. Spd, starting with those closest to the attacker and then moving outwards from there. The TN of this Save is the total sum of the attacker's roll. If the character makes their Save, the attack missed them. The first target that fails their Save takes damage as usual from the attack. This damage may be reduced by the AR of the character who was actually hit. Modifiers to the potential target's DEF, from a Shield or from Combat Moves that involve any type of Dodge are also applied to the character's Saving Throw.


imported_Rasyr

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Rethinking "Firing into Melee"
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 02:16:43 PM »
The main differences between what I wrote and your version seem to be the following (please correct me if I am missing something -- simply trying to make sure I caught/understood the changes you proposed):













































[b]Item[/b][b]My version[/b][b]Samwise's Version[/b]
Initial Modifier-4 for shooting into meleeno modifier
Target Numberexplicitly states that any modifiers to the original roll (skill bonus, range increment modifiers, combat moves used, etc.) also apply when setting the TNimplies, but does not explicitly state that all modifiers apply
Damage DealtDouble Base damage, no scaling damagedamage as normal





The only issue I have with your rewrite of it is the part about the damage dealt. Specifically, being the fact that since the potential target (not the original target) is making a Saving Throw against the attack, how do we "determine damage as normal" since the attack roll (i.e. the TN) may actually be lower than the DEF of the person who was hit.

Example: Joe has his character shoot at an orc in melee using a Long Bow (9 hits of Base Damage). Joe rolls the dice, adds in the range modifier, and the AB adjustments from his Combat Move and his skill bonus but only gets a total roll of 18. He just missed! The GM determines that in addition to the  PC that the orc is fighting, there is another PC and Orc fighting between Joe's original target and and Joe's character, so all 3 have to make Saving Throws (TN 18). The closest PC goes first and makes his Save, the second orc fails his Save (rolling a 7, which gives a total Save roll of 13, 6 less than the TN).

Under the way I wrote it, the orc would take 18 hits of damage before his AR of 7 reduced it to 11 hits.

Under the way you wrote it, I can see 2 possible outcomes (and it isn't clear which would apply):

Outcome 1 -- Since the original attack roll/Save TN was lower than the orc's DEF, he takes no damage (the arrow hits, but ricochet's off his armor, doing no damage)

Outcome 2 -- The orc takes Base Damage from being hit, but since the TN was less than the orc's DEF, he takes no scaling damage.

As an alternative, I also came up with the following possible outcome while trying to figure out how "damage as normal" works in regards to a Save:

Alternative Outcome -- The orc takes a total of 15 hits (9 Base Damage + 6 hit (1 hit for each point the Save is failed by)) before AR is applied.

I am liking this third option.

So, how about this for a possible rewrite of it:




Firing Into Melee: Melee is a constant confusion of shifting bodies as the opponents move back and forth, to the left and right, all trying to gain the best position. Attempting to make a ranged attack into this confusion is very difficult at best, and potentially hazardous for people other than the target.

If the attack hits its intended target, it is resolved normally.

If it misses, then all other potential targets within 5' of the path of the attack must make a Saving Throw vs. Spd, starting with those closest to the attacker and then moving outwards from there. The TN of this Save is the attacker's total attack roll (dice roll + skill bonus + all modifiers). If the character makes their Save, the attack missed them. If they fail their Save, they receive the Base Damage of the attack plus 1 additional hit for each point that they failed their Save by.

This damage may be reduced by the AR of the character who was actually hit. Modifiers to the potential target's DEF, from a Shield or from Combat Moves that involve any type of Dodge are also applied to the character's Saving Throw.

Offline samwise7

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Rethinking "Firing into Melee"
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 05:51:09 PM »
I like your revised idea.  It sounds good.  I will pass it on to Brian.

imported_Rasyr

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Rethinking "Firing into Melee"
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 05:56:03 PM »

I like your revised idea.  It sounds good.  I will pass it on to Brian.




I just wish that I had had this idea when we discussed it previously. Unfortunately, I was likely pre-occupied with other things and never gave it the attention it deserved.

Offline samwise7

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Rethinking "Firing into Melee"
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 06:16:58 PM »
Inspiration comes at random times, and sometimes as a result of being "prodded."  On another note, I rather liked the different APs for different sized weapons.

imported_Rasyr

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Rethinking "Firing into Melee"
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 06:28:00 PM »
yeah, several of you guys had asked for them in one form or another, through various comments, and prior to my rewriting of the Combat Move rules, it just never made sense to include them.

Anyways, back to working on making the Character Sheet Form....

imported_Rasyr

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Rethinking "Firing into Melee"
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2012, 05:09:03 PM »
Ok, have been going through this again, to see if there might have been something that I missed.

In the original version,  we gave a shot into a melee situation a -4 to the AB, and then in the most recent version it had no modifier at all. While I can agree that -4 may be too much, I do think that no negative modifier for shooting at a target who is constantly weaving, dodging and jockeying for position against a melee foe may be too little. Therefore, I am going to work a -2 modifier to the attack roll into it.

Secondly, I want to clarify things that may increase a target's chances of Saving against the incoming attack.





Firing Into Melee: Melee is a constant confusion of shifting bodies as the opponents move back and forth, to the left and right, all trying to gain the best position. Attempting to make a ranged attack into this confusion is very difficult at best, and potentially hazardous for people other than the target. Any ranged attack made into a melee situation receives a -2 modifier to the attack roll.

When making an attack into a melee situation, if the attack hits its intended target, it is resolved normally.

If it misses, then all other potential targets within 5' of the path of the attack must make a Saving Throw vs. Spd, starting with those closest to the attacker and then moving outwards from there.

The TN of this Save is the attacker's total attack roll (dice roll + skill bonus + all modifiers that applied to the attack against its original target). If the potential target makes his Save, the attack missed him and the next potential target must make a Saving Throw vs. Spd (same TN). If he failed his Save, he receive the Base Damage of the attack plus 1 additional hit of Scaled Damage for each point that he failed his Save by.

This damage may be reduced by the character's AR. Modifiers to the potential target's DEF, from a Shield, various Combat Moves (Dodges, Diving for Cover, etc.), Talents, magical armor, spells, etc. (GM's discretion, but it is recommended that all bonuses that do not rely on skill or awareness of the potential target be allowed) should also be applied to the Saving Throw.