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Offline Rasyr

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Novus Beta update thread
« on: September 13, 2020, 03:48:03 PM »
I figured that it might be a good idea to create a thread where I can post updates on the next version of the Beta.

I finally finshed reworking the spells last week. I even got them into the pagemaker file.

I have since then begun working through the manuscript updating other items. Here is a partial list of the updates/changes taking place.
  • Removing the Boon/Snag system and tables
  • renaming the things that you spend Fate Points on as Boons
  • Moving the newly renamed Boons out of the Finishing Touches chapter
  • adding Boons for dealing Secondary Damage & Wounds
  • making changes so that Fate Points are more easily earned (i.e. similar to how Boon Points used to be)
  • Fixing skills  (changing Unarmed to martial Arts and  providing basic styles; fixing Influence so that is a single style of skill (in some places it was treated as a sub-skill and in others as a specialty skill)
  • Fixing Training Paths that use Unarmed to match the changes in skills
  • Fixing Unarmed in the Combat Chapter
  • removing Boon Points and Snag Points from throughout the manuscript
  • fixing the Running Novus chapter (i.e. Boons and Snags)
  • changing the thresholds for Type II damage, and correcting errors about how it works
  • Creating Wound system that also  uses Thresholds
  • Changing how wounds are calculated (for how many you can receive)
  • Update all the creatures to accomodate the other changes made.
I am sure that I am making others as well, but that is all that I can think of at the moment.

Offline witchking20k

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2020, 05:50:11 PM »
Lots of work. I was reading Novus to start converting races etc for an upcoming Shadow World campaign. Martial Arts, Fighting Styles and Combat moves are something that (while appealing) could use a revisit.

Offline Rasyr

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2020, 10:38:16 PM »
I like the 5 tier system for the Combat styles. I think that it works.

However, I am always open to suggestions. (Please make suggestions!!! I might not use them, but they will often allow me to think of things I might not have thought of  without the suggestion)




In a little more detail, what I have done so far is to change the  "Unarmed" skill to Martial Arts. I currently have it set up so that you have to specialize into a given Martial Arts skill - the ones I currently have are:

Boxing -This includes Jab, Kick, Punch, Quickfire Attack, Roundhouse (Punch), and Takedown.

Tobudo- This includes Kick, Legsweep, Punch, Roundhouse (Kick/Punch), Takeaway, Throw.

Wrestling - This includes Escape, Grab, Legsweep, Takeaway, Takedown, Throw.
Note: Any moves not listed for a style may still be used at a -5 modifier. Or the character may purchase them (similar to purchasing Weapon Proficiencies)


(name "Tobudo" will change, once I develop a Martial Arts Naming system (which will fit into Anwyn))

The Combat Styles of Boxing and Wrestling would be renamed (for example, Wrestling could be renamed to Pakraton (yes, I know the ancient greek wrestling was Pankration, but this would be my fantasy version of it and the Boxing combat style would be renamed as Pugilism).

I was gonna change the MA Styles so that they required one of these skills (i.e. Pugilism requires Boxing as that is the skill used for it).

Currently, a Combat Style (if not Favored) cost 30 CP to learn all 5 tiers (20 CP to learn all 5 if Favored)

I always kinda liked how Champions did Martial Arts (you had to purchase moves and skills, including a knowledge skill to be considered a practitioner of a given style (i.e. you had to know a minimum).

 

Thoughts? Comments?

Offline Fidoric

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2020, 01:44:21 AM »
Many changes to consider. Wounding system was the thing to change from previous version I think.
Can't wait to read the next manuscript.

Offline witchking20k

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2020, 06:57:35 AM »
I like the way Champions/Hero does a lot of things. Martial Arts Included. I think during the original Novus discussions we drew heavily on them for combat in particular. Just had another comment that is probably better as a new thread....anyway....

Personally, I think MA and the spell system should kind of align.

So, currently the spell system is based on 1) a knowledge skill, 2) an action skill, and 3) the purchase of individual spells.

So, the MA system should follow the same pattern IMO.

1) a knowledge skill to represent the study

2) a fighting skill to represent the action

3) the purchase of individual actions - based on the knowledge skill

That said, players are going to do the cost analysis. So, whatever system is used in 2.0 I think it has to make sense in a "min/max" approach.

 

Offline Rasyr

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2020, 09:13:43 AM »
Ok, so how does this sound --

right now,  The TWC style required that the player have Weapon Focus for the primary weapon.

TWC and all other combat styles require Favored Combat Style to allow for a lesser cost of the style.

The costs being:






























Combat Style Costs
FavoredStandard
24
35
46
57
68










So, if we make the following changes:
  • All Combat Styles require the purchase of a Base Combat Skill (this means that I would need to add a few more Martial Arts skills, one for each style)
  • All Combat Styles require the purchase of a Combat Style Talent (this would be akin to the Knowledge Skill, but a one time purchase). Without this Talent, you cannot gain a Combat Style at all.
  • Keeping the Tiers, but each Tier now costs the # of the Tier (i.e. 1,2, 3, 4, & 5 respectively). Purchase of a Tier will require a a minimum number of skill ranks in the required skill (I am thinking the unmber or ranks should be the Tiers in reverse (i.e. requires 5 ranks to get Tier 1, 9 ranks (5+4) for Tier 2, 12 ranks (5+4+3) for Tier 3, etc.)
For the Martial Arts, additional Combat Moves (beyond those given by the style may be purchased for the smae cost of learning a Specialty (3 CP).









Question

Combat skills are complicated. I could easily simplify them, but it would increase the number of skills overall. Like so:

Basically, take the 5 Skills and turn them into Categories (1H, 2H, Th, Mi, MA). Each "Weapon Group" would then become a seperate skill.

1 Handed would then have 7 skills

2 Handed would then have 5 skills

Missiles would have 3 skills

Thrown would have 4 skills

and Martial Arts currently has 3 skills (as written currently)

(that is 22 skills currently)

And then for each skill, no proficiencies, every weapon in the skill would use the full skill bonus. Weapons in other groups under the same category would use +1 per every 5 ranks in the best skill in that category (or its skill bonus, whichever is higher)

This would also allow us to add a "Style Skill" as well, in which we can say cannot be higher than the weapon skill which holds the weapon. Thus,  the Fencing Style would have a Fencing skill under 1 Handed, but learning it would require that you have equal or higher ranks in Light Blades (and two weapon combo requires the Weapon Focus since both weapons may be in the same Group)




Thoughts? Comments?

Offline witchking20k

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2020, 10:13:13 AM »
TBH - I don't like individual combat skills. The first tweak I did to Novus was use general weapons skills. It makes no sense to me that Magecraft or Survival or Gimmickry cover a variety of uses but I have to develop a separate skill for dagger vs. short sword vs. broadsword. Especially when you consider that there is a greater difference between hunting, trapping, fishing and foraging than wielding a dagger vs. a short sword.

IMO the Weapon Groups should be the classic MERP groups (renamed as Archery, Axe & Hammer, Blades, Pole Arms, Throwing, & Two Handed) + Marital Arts Strike & Sweep. I'd consider combining MA into a single skill with the attack based on SPD but the DMG based on ST or AG depending if its a Strike or Sweep too. (I've been giving some thought to MA, Combat Moves, and Spell Casting and how they should kind of all be similar). I really need to read v15 because I have t see how it is currently hanging together to offer real feedback.

I'm not opposed to a style skill but have concerns with it being a weapon skill. I'd sooner it be a knowledge (as in a previous post somewhere).

You could add a Talent like Weapon Specialist that gives a +1AB to a specific instance of a weapon like broadsword. But, for the skill, I'd rather see a Blades weapon group that covers them all. As a GM/Player it's more fun to have the broad groups so that PCs can use weapons of opportunity or something they picked up during adventuring easier.

Plus, it makes the DPs go further and allows PCs to branch into "secondary" skills easier over time.

I had quite a rant written here. But, deleted most of it until I can read v15. LOL

Offline Rasyr

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2020, 11:08:28 AM »
Currently, the only changes that have been made to the combat skills was to change "Unarmed" to Martial Arts, and to create 3 skills under it. Everything else in regards to Combat skills is currently like v14 so far (I have NOT made any of the above changes yet. I want to hear ideas and discuss them before I make further changes (I am quite open to changes, but I do need to think about the impact across the rest of the system before implementing them)




We already have a Weapon Focus talent (already in v14, so you can look at it there)




As to the suggestions you made While I like the idea of few skills overall. there are some issues I have with the list you provided.
Archery, Axe & Hammer, Blades, Pole Arms, Throwing, & Two Handed) + Marital Arts Strike & Sweep.

Instead I would counter with this list:
  • Archery -- This would be just bows, cause crossbows are so different in how they are used -- includes Short Bow, Long Bow, Composite Bow, Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, and Hand Crossbows
  • Blades (Heavy) -- Bastard Sword, Broadsword, Long Sword, Falchion, etc. (big chopping/bashing blades)
  • Blades (Light) -- Rapier, short sword, smallsword, dagger, maine gauche, sai, scimitar, etc. (lighter slashing/puncturing weapons)
  • Chains Plus -- Ball & Chain, Morning Star, etc (weapons that have a flexible component between where it is held and the striking surfaces)
  • Clubs Plus -- Axes & Hammers from your list, trying an alternative name -- includes hand Axe, Hatchets, Kama, Batons, Cudgels, Maces, Sai, War Hammers
  • Martial Arts -- This would bring it back to a single skill like before. Perhaps have it include only a few basic combat moves, allowing for purchasing additional moves seperately.
  • Pole Arms -- includes javelins short spears, Bardiches, Bec de Corbins Glaives, Guisarmes, Halberds, lances, Military Forks, Ranseurs, Spears, and Staves. Would include all uses, including one handed, two handed and thrown as appropriate for any given weapon.
  • Slings -- includes Slings, Sling Staff, SlingShot, and we could include Lassos, Nets, and Bolas in here as well.
  • Thrown -- Hand Axes, War Hammers, Darts, Dagers, shuriken, etc.
  • Two Handed -- This would include Battle Axes, Great Club, Bastard Swords, Great Swords, Claymores, and other large weapons (not covered under Pole Arms).
This gives us 10 combat skills in total (I am not fond of having Bows and Crossbows being in same skill, but I can live with it hehehe).

THoughts? Comments?

Offline witchking20k

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2020, 12:19:28 PM »
I see why you'd want to separate Blades as one is DEX based and the other STR.

I'm not sure that a ball & chain based weapon vs. a mace/hammer is used enough to bother separating itself out of the Clubs skill. But, if the intention is to have them DEX based vs. Clubs as a STR based weapon I can see it.

I'll re-read v14 (now that I have it). The big test is always character creation.

Offline Rasyr

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2020, 01:06:55 PM »
After some more thought, I came up with the following using the mechanisms we already have in Novus

 




Combat

Combat has a number of sub-skills. As always, having one sub-skill as Favored does not make any of the others Favored. Several of the listed sub-skills also have Specialties within them.

The character knows how to use all weapons in the given Sub-skill or Sub-skill/Specialty combo. Weapons in other Specialties under the same Sub-skill can be used with a -5 modifier, and the other SPecialties can be purchased for a one time cost of 3 CP.
  • Archery --- 2 Specialties, Bows and Crossbows
         Bows -- includes Short Bow, Long Bow, Composite Bow
         Crossbows -- includes Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Hand                                   Crossbow
  • Blades -- 2 Specialties, Heavy BLades and Light Blades
    Heavy Blades -- includes Bastard Sword, Broadsword, Long                             Sword, Falchion, etc.
         Light Blades -- includes Rapier, short sword, smallsword,                      dagger, maine gauche, sai, scimitar, etc.
  • Bludgeoning -- 3 Specialties, Axes, Chains Plus, Clubs
         Axes -- includes Hand Axe, Hatchets, Kama
         Chains Plus -- includes Ball & Chain, Meteor Hammer,                                      Morning Star, etc (weapons that have a flexible                                      component between where it is held and the striking                            surfaces)
         Clubs -- includes Batons, Cudgels, Maces, Sai, War Hammers
  • Martial Arts -- 3 Specialties, Boxing, Wrestling, Wu Shu (this is an alternative name for Kung Fu, which has just about the largest variety of different specific styles).
    Boxing -- includes Jab, Kick, Punch, Quickfire Attack,                                       Roundhouse (Punch), Takedown, and unarmed Block
    Wrestling -- includes Kick, Legsweep, Punch, Roundhouse                              (Kick/Punch), Takeaway, Throw, and unarmed Block
    Wu Shu -- includes Escape, Grab, Legsweep, Takeaway,                                   Takedown, Throw, and unarmed Block
  • Pole Arms -- 3 Specialties, Pole Arms, Spears, and Staves
         Pole Arms -- includes Bardiches, Bec de Corbins                                            Glaives, Guisarmes, Halberds, lances, Military Forks,                            Ranseurs
         Spears -- includes javelins short spears, spears
         Staves -- includes bo staff, jo staff, quarterstaff
  • Thrown -- 5 Specialties, Blades, Hafted, Lines, Slings, Spears
    Blades -- includes Darts Daggers, Shuriken, etc.
    Hafted -- includes Hand Axes, War Hammers
    Lines -- includes Lassos, Nets, and Bolas
    Slings -- includes Slings, Sling Staff, SlingShot
    Spears -- includes javelins short spears, spears
  • Two Handed -- 2 Specialties, Clubs and Blades
    Blades -- includes Bastard Swords, Great Swords, Claymores,                               etc
         Clubs -- includes Battle Axes, Great Clubs, etc. and other large                          weapons (not covered under Pole Arms).
This way we have fewer skills overall (only 7), and no Proficiencies, and you can still pick up the weapons from other Specialties under your skill and use them, just not as well.

 

Offline witchking20k

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2020, 01:25:28 PM »
So, if I purchase Blades: Heavy Blades as a skill I can wield any Heavy Blade without penalty & I can use any Light Blade at -5?

Offline Rasyr

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2020, 01:42:38 PM »
Quote from: 17940
So, if I purchase Blades: Heavy Blades as a skill I can wield any Heavy Blade without penalty & I can use any Light Blade at -5?

Yup

And I just realized that Slings should be up under Archery, not under Thrown.

Offline witchking20k

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2020, 01:43:00 PM »
Just skimmed v14. I had forgotten how much of a divergence Novus 2.0 is from 1.0.

Offline Rasyr

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2020, 01:56:01 PM »
Quote from: 17942
Just skimmed v14. I had forgotten how much of a divergence Novus 2.0 is from 1.0.

Yup...  :)

Offline witchking20k

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Novus Beta update thread
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2020, 02:27:33 PM »
I can't wait to see the trimmed back version - v14 is a little overwhelming.