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Offline Spartan

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Initial Impressions
« on: March 01, 2024, 05:35:29 AM »
I've been chatting with Tim on rpg.net, and I'll add my thoughts here as well for public consideration.

Firstly, I think Tim is really onto something here. Having a RM core mechanic but with a bell-curve is frankly brilliant. While I love the swingy-ness of RM, it can get to be a bit much sometimes.

The Action Table is fantastic. It's essentially the same idea as done in Talislanta 4e, and should be played up as a central feature. One Table to Rule Them All, etc.

I love the success levels. They're like the Stunt Points in the Age System, which are pretty fun IMO. I ran a FAGE one off and the players really enjoyed them. Mythras has something similar with its Special Effects.
 
The Drive Point mechanic with Special Skills is absolutely brilliant, especially the ones that activate for a whole scene. So cool.

Things I'd change:

Full disclosure: I'm a longtime HEMA instructor, practitioner of Japanese Swordsmanship and Judoka. I could (and do) nerd out on combat mechanics all day long.

Weapon reach is vital, even after the initial engagement. Getting into range with a dagger against a longsword, for example, is incredibly difficult, and staying there is hard too. I'd say that if you don't do a Daze or Stun, an opponent can easily reset distance and keep initiative. Or maybe say that you need one success level per difference in reach to maintain initiative or something.

Fumbles: it's much easier to fumble a one-handed weapon than a two-handed one. With a two-handed weapon, if your grip slips, you can use the other hand to recover quite easily. That's why our instinct is to hold on with both hands when someone tries to grab something from us: it works. I've fumbled one-handed weapons much more than two-handed during my career as a tournament fighter. Daggers are indeed hard to fumble, though. It's not that hard to hit the ground with your weapon if you're under stress though, that's for sure.

Fun fact, in tournament I once saw a longsword (during a grapple) bend against the mats like a longbow and promptly fly away from the opponents at incredible speed perfectly vertical, pommel up, point down for probably 15 feet, with the pommel denting a metal door on impact. I've never seen anything like it before or since. While a sharp sword would just get stuck in the ground, on a cobblestone surface that could possibly happen. Real swords can be surprisingly bendy.

I am not a fan of the RM armed combat vs. "martial arts" distinction. It's a holdover from (admittedly fun!) 80's kung fu movies. Karate is a martial art. So is longsword fencing, so is Kenjutsu. That being said, if you want that vibe, go nuts. I'm about to run an RMSS game where one player is going all-in Warrior Monk with stuff from the Martial Arts Companion, and it's going to be interesting!

Fun fact #2, European monks were apparently known for being expert grapplers. The oldest fencing manual (sword & buckler) shows monks, too. Kinda neat.

My groups have always loved the magical herbs in RM. So glad to see them in FX. I love the Essential Salts too. Cool idea. It's great that Alchemy is getting a nice treatment. I've been reading a lot of Chivalry & Sorcery 2e lately and the in-depth treatment of mages' "down time" is amazing.

The Vocation system is very neat. Incredibly flexible and looks like it would be quick in practice. I'm eager to try it out.

With 300 pages, it's reasonably hefty. Depending on the design goals, it could go either way in page count. Is it supposed to be "lean and mean" or an omnibus? Either is fine, just be clear about the final goal, IMO. Are you looking to streamline or expand?

This is something very special. There's so much to like about this game, and it will be worth it to take the time to do it right with polish, good production values and intensive playtesting.

And it's gotta be fun, of course. I think it will be. Anyone given it a good run through yet?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2024, 05:39:47 AM by Spartan »

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2024, 07:08:55 AM »
I've been chatting with Tim on rpg.net, and I'll add my thoughts here as well for public consideration.

Firstly, I think Tim is really onto something here. Having a RM core mechanic but with a bell-curve is frankly brilliant. While I love the swingy-ness of RM, it can get to be a bit much sometimes.

Awwww... Gee thanks!

The Action Table is fantastic. It's essentially the same idea as done in Talislanta 4e, and should be played up as a central feature. One Table to Rule Them All, etc.

I love the success levels. They're like the Stunt Points in the Age System, which are pretty fun IMO. I ran a FAGE one off and the players really enjoyed them. Mythras has something similar with its Special Effects.

There were a number of games that provided influence. And I have always liked the "One mechanic to rule them all" types of systems, as there is always ways to play with that to allow for variations and different methods of resolution even while using that one mechanic.

The Drive Point mechanic with Special Skills is absolutely brilliant, especially the ones that activate for a whole scene. So cool.

That I cannot take credit for. Most of that come from Against the Darkmaster and the Grevious Grimoire.

Things I'd change:

Full disclosure: I'm a longtime HEMA instructor, practitioner of Japanese Swordsmanship and Judoka. I could (and do) nerd out on combat mechanics all day long.

Weapon reach is vital, even after the initial engagement. Getting into range with a dagger against a longsword, for example, is incredibly difficult, and staying there is hard too. I'd say that if you don't do a Daze or Stun, an opponent can easily reset distance and keep initiative. Or maybe say that you need one success level per difference in reach to maintain initiative or something.

Yeah, Against the Darkmaster's combat system always goes with "Longest weapon attacks first" where I prefer initiative systems.

I like the idea of adding a combat results option for "maintaining distance" or something like that, that allows for that first round of combat longest weapon" init modifier (or perhaps making it a Free Action item would be better - then I could also have a "Close Distance" item too, and have them resolve as Conflicting Actions...

Fumbles: it's much easier to fumble a one-handed weapon than a two-handed one. With a two-handed weapon, if your grip slips, you can use the other hand to recover quite easily. That's why our instinct is to hold on with both hands when someone tries to grab something from us: it works. I've fumbled one-handed weapons much more than two-handed during my career as a tournament fighter. Daggers are indeed hard to fumble, though. It's not that hard to hit the ground with your weapon if you're under stress though, that's for sure.

Good points! I will need to go back and take a closer look the CF ranges.

Fun fact, in tournament I once saw a longsword (during a grapple) bend against the mats like a longbow and promptly fly away from the opponents at incredible speed perfectly vertical, pommel up, point down for probably 15 feet, with the pommel denting a metal door on impact. I've never seen anything like it before or since. While a sharp sword would just get stuck in the ground, on a cobblestone surface that could possibly happen. Real swords can be surprisingly bendy.

Neat!

I am not a fan of the RM armed combat vs. "martial arts" distinction. It's a holdover from (admittedly fun!) 80's kung fu movies. Karate is a martial art. So is longsword fencing, so is Kenjutsu. That being said, if you want that vibe, go nuts. I'm about to run an RMSS game where one player is going all-in Warrior Monk with stuff from the Martial Arts Companion, and it's going to be interesting!

Fun fact #2, European monks were apparently known for being expert grapplers. The oldest fencing manual (sword & buckler) shows monks, too. Kinda neat.

Over the various versions, I have reduced the Martial Arts benefits  several times, reducing their overall power.  And they all use the Brawl skill (and you can use it with Hand weapons too).

My groups have always loved the magical herbs in RM. So glad to see them in FX. I love the Essential Salts too. Cool idea. It's great that Alchemy is getting a nice treatment. I've been reading a lot of Chivalry & Sorcery 2e lately and the in-depth treatment of mages' "down time" is amazing.

Essential Salts is a staple in all of my games for the past decade or so. I use them as a catalist for crafting magical items, and for using as extra mana as well.  And I have always loved herbs as well, as they can often be les expensive than magical healing.

The Vocation system is very neat. Incredibly flexible and looks like it would be quick in practice. I'm eager to try it out.

I actually stumbled on to that idea... I was trying to create a flexible Vocation system (since vsD only has like 8 or 9 Vocations) and I have 8 different Schools of Magic, and I kept running into issues until I basically cut the Vocations in half, and then that just clicked.

32 Vocations, where you simply select 2 - that offers multiple paths to get similar character type, all of which are unique to

With 300 pages, it's reasonably hefty. Depending on the design goals, it could go either way in page count. Is it supposed to be "lean and mean" or an omnibus? Either is fine, just be clear about the final goal, IMO. Are you looking to streamline or expand?

I do have a lite version of the rules, which keeps the core elements, but offers a less expensive buy in to the system.

For the full set of the rules (300 pages), considering that Against the Darkmaster was over 500 pages, I think I am actually doing good here... hehehe

This is something very special. There's so much to like about this game, and it will be worth it to take the time to do it right with polish, good production values and intensive playtesting.

Thank you, and I agree, which is why I am not in any hurry to end the Beta yet. :)

Offline Spartan

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2024, 07:30:28 AM »
For the full set of the rules (300 pages), considering that Against the Darkmaster was over 500 pages, I think I am actually doing good here... hehehe

Oh, absolutely. It's a manageable size, which will probably change over time. Is the ≈ 300 page mark your goal, or are you looking to streamline or expand?

VsD is like Hero 5e: Stops bullets or your money back! Maybe there needs to be an Easter Egg in the FX art: A mage casting a spell from his massive spellbook, which is the VsD hardcover!

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2024, 07:34:43 AM »
For the full set of the rules (300 pages), considering that Against the Darkmaster was over 500 pages, I think I am actually doing good here... hehehe

Oh, absolutely. It's a manageable size, which will probably change over time. Is the ≈ 300 page mark your goal, or are you looking to streamline or expand?

VsD is like Hero 5e: Stops bullets or your money back! Maybe there needs to be an Easter Egg in the FX art: A mage casting a spell from his massive spellbook, which is the VsD hardcover!

Once I realized the size, I started aiming for no more than 300 pages (including the index)

Even the Lite version is 160 pages....

Oh and I like that art idea.. hehehe I'll suggest it to Max for a future product (I'd have to save up enough to commission something like that... as such can be very expensive)

Offline Spartan

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2024, 07:50:33 AM »
Oh, another suggestion, worth exactly what you paid for it: re-naming the vocations that aren't already in plain English. As cool as Sicarius (for example) sounds, it doesn't say at a glance what it is. Whereas "Warrior Mage" paints a pretty clear picture. This would help reduce the time spent on deciding vocations, of which there are a plethora.

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2024, 08:03:53 AM »
Oh, another suggestion, worth exactly what you paid for it: re-naming the vocations that aren't already in plain English. As cool as Sicarius (for example) sounds, it doesn't say at a glance what it is. Whereas "Warrior Mage" paints a pretty clear picture. This would help reduce the time spent on deciding vocations, of which there are a plethora.

Some of them have more common names that I did not want to use, others have names that don't really convert too well...
  • Diwhar = warrior who specializes in two weapon combat
  • Sohei = Warrior Monk(ish) or Martial Artist, yes I know Sohei is a culturally specific term, but I think it fits better overall
  • Vanguard = warrior who specializes in shield use to protect others
  • Sicarius = Ninja or Assassin (neither actually appropriate as one is culture specific and the other implies underlying  evil intent); also there is a Special skill or background option called Assassin -- and I don't want to use the same term for multiple things
  • Spiritior - Spirit Warrior does not really convey the meaning desired





Offline Spartan

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2024, 09:57:39 AM »
Wow, so much good work has been done on the weapon stats. Very nicely done, among the best I'ver seen. I'd add a few tweaks:

Since the Broadsword and Arming Sword are more or less identical in the chart, why not model the "broadsword" on the Scottish Basket Hilt Broadsword? You could add Parry (1) for the complex hilt. Having fought with a messer (my favourite weapon) against more complex hilted weapons many times, they certainly have a distinct parrying advantage. I would also add Parry (1) to the rapier since it's equally frustrating to deal with. Stupid rapiers.  >:(

I would add "Martial" to Longsword/Bastard Sword (essentially the same thing). Historical longsword sources show a lot of grappling, takedowns, disarms, and a joint lock or two. It's even more so with a shorter weapon: Lecküchner's messer (a German falchion, kinda) manual is like a third grappling or something.

I'm so stoked to see such a variety of weapons detailed with their own little quirks. It goes along great with the variety of martial vocations. You can really fine-tune a fighter character with very little work. Nicely done!

Offline Spartan

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2024, 02:48:28 AM »
Longsword and Bastard sword should have the riposte quality as well, as one of their main features IRL is being able to parry and strike simultaneously due to their length. One master (Joachim Meyer) called these kinds of techniques "Master Strikes". Alternatively, it could be part of Weapon Focus instead, since it's not easy to do.

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2024, 05:50:41 AM »
Longsword and Bastard sword should have the riposte quality as well, as one of their main features IRL is being able to parry and strike simultaneously due to their length. One master (Joachim Meyer) called these kinds of techniques "Master Strikes". Alternatively, it could be part of Weapon Focus instead, since it's not easy to do.

Riposte is a Martial Move. It can be done with any weapon

Offline Spartan

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2024, 06:07:58 AM »
Ooooh. I thought they could only be done with Martial Weapons. Sorry, still learning. Having lots of fun though.

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2024, 06:30:41 AM »
Ooooh. I thought they could only be done with Martial Weapons. Sorry, still learning. Having lots of fun though.

Yup ANY weapon can be used with Martial Moves (though they may not be able to perform every move, depending upon the weapon - we leave it to the GM to determine what seems right - i.e. you cannot do a Shield Bash with a Quarterstaff....)

Martial Weapons simply gain a +4 when performing Martial Moves.

Offline Swanosaurus

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2024, 12:47:46 PM »
I'll chime in with my initial impressions as well (better than to start a new thread, I think).
I'm coming from MERP here (with MERP leading me to HARP and VdD, which are both games that I enjoyed reading, but never actually played). I tend to prefer rules-lite games these days (at the moment I'm writing scenarios for Troika! and Cloud Empress, which are pretty much at the opposite end of the scale from the Rolemaster family); but I also like games where details like armor, weapon effects and how and where you are wounded actually matter, I just don't get around to playing them anymore. So take whatever I have to say with a grain of salt, because all of this is from theory, not from practice with the rules of FE.

First of all, as others have stated, I really like the combination of RM's exploding dice and critical success levels with a 2-dice-bell-curve. Swingyness is nice, but FE feels like it gives the system a more solid foundation when it comes to what can be expected of a roll.

I like that there are individual spells (like in HARP), not spell lists, though I still have to dive into the magic system.

I love that the heroic path from VdD is in, it is a really great implementation of "fate points" mechanics!

I skimmed the combat chapter, and the most obvious change is the lack of hit/crit tables. The latter being replaced by a "build your own crit with success levels" system makes a lot of sense. I'm not quite sure if it's a simplification, though; the upside of MERP/VsD is that you just roll your dice and then can look up what happened; the downside is the lack of control (and wherever systems from the RM family try to work around that by providing rules for called shots, disarming opponents or stuff like that, it always feels like, well, a workaround, and not really organic to the system). I know the "count your success levels and go shopping for special effects" from two other RPGs, the BRP-based Mythras and Green Ronin's FantasyAge. Both are systems I like, but I must confess that I don't run them any more, in part because of the analysis paralysis inherent in the "shopping" part - and there's a lot to shop for ... sure, players who don't care can always just choose the special damage from the table on the top, but the problem is that some players WILL (over-)analyze their options.

Still, I must say that it looks like the overall effects of the criticals have been abstracted quite well form traditional crit tables to create a more abstract and flexible system; that alone is a really great achievement. I'm not sure that I'll play it, but on paper, I like it.

From what I've read by now, FE could certainly rival Mythras as a crunchy, grounded fantasy system, and if I ever get the opportunity to run it, I'll certainly give it a try.

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Initial Impressions
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2024, 01:16:11 PM »
I'll chime in with my initial impressions as well (better than to start a new thread, I think).
I'm coming from MERP here (with MERP leading me to HARP and VdD, which are both games that I enjoyed reading, but never actually played). I tend to prefer rules-lite games these days (at the moment I'm writing scenarios for Troika! and Cloud Empress, which are pretty much at the opposite end of the scale from the Rolemaster family); but I also like games where details like armor, weapon effects and how and where you are wounded actually matter, I just don't get around to playing them anymore. So take whatever I have to say with a grain of salt, because all of this is from theory, not from practice with the rules of FE.

Jutst a quick note, the abbreviation I use for Fantasy Express is FX (it is even in the book... heheh) it is also why the X in the title is larger than the rest of the word express. :)

First of all, as others have stated, I really like the combination of RM's exploding dice and critical success levels with a 2-dice-bell-curve. Swingyness is nice, but FE feels like it gives the system a more solid foundation when it comes to what can be expected of a roll.

I have always liked bell curves (or a bell pyramid in this case hehehe), and I like open-ended rolls, so I paired them together (my other games do this in a different way, but I like this method better, I think).

I like that there are individual spells (like in HARP), not spell lists, though I still have to dive into the magic system.

They are not quite the same as found in HARP, but I think that they are better overall, and sorry, but I do not have a spell creation system that I used other than this feels right). The spells themselves were inspired by the spells from the 30th Anniversary Edition of Arcanum (among other places).

I love that the heroic path from VdD is in, it is a really great implementation of "fate points" mechanics!

I thought so as well!! I am so glad that Max and the others at Open Ended Games came up with it.

I skimmed the combat chapter, and the most obvious change is the lack of hit/crit tables. The latter being replaced by a "build your own crit with success levels" system makes a lot of sense. I'm not quite sure if it's a simplification, though; the upside of MERP/VsD is that you just roll your dice and then can look up what happened; the downside is the lack of control (and wherever systems from the RM family try to work around that by providing rules for called shots, disarming opponents or stuff like that, it always feels like, well, a workaround, and not really organic to the system). I know the "count your success levels and go shopping for special effects" from two other RPGs, the BRP-based Mythras and Green Ronin's FantasyAge. Both are systems I like, but I must confess that I don't run them any more, in part because of the analysis paralysis inherent in the "shopping" part - and there's a lot to shop for ... sure, players who don't care can always just choose the special damage from the table on the top, but the problem is that some players WILL (over-)analyze their options.

The simplicity/complexity of my take on this versus how Against the Darkmaster handles it depends on your point of view.

For many folks, the multiple attack tables and critical tables found in RM and even in Against the Darkmaster could be considered complex (I have certainly seen much dislike for the page flipping over the years....)

Looked at from the other direction, roll on table one, roll on table two is simple, and the build your critical  is more complex.

Personally, I liked the idea of trying to build my own critical. And the way it is set up, some of the possible effects sort of, but not exactly mirror those found in the specific Martial Moves (i.e. you can attempt the Martial Move: Disarm which is resolved one way (Conflicting Actions), or decide AFTER your attack roll to use some of your Success Levels to disarm your foe, which is resolved in a different way (a Saving Roll).

This allows flexibility in approach without adding too much complication -- I like simple but flexible, so that was my general viewpoint in writing this.



Still, I must say that it looks like the overall effects of the criticals have been abstracted quite well form traditional crit tables to create a more abstract and flexible system; that alone is a really great achievement. I'm not sure that I'll play it, but on paper, I like it.

One of the main thing about critical tables is their flavor text. It was always intended that a GM alter the flavor text to fit the situation, but too many did not do that or refused to do that.

By abstracting this down, and allowing the GM to supply the flavor text (I think I showcase this in the Combat Example), I am trying to keep that simple results, but flexibilty for the GM to describe it how he likes.

From what I've read by now, FE could certainly rival Mythras as a crunchy, grounded fantasy system, and if I ever get the opportunity to run it, I'll certainly give it a try.

Thank you.

Also, welcome to the forums!!