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Author Topic: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28  (Read 4777 times)

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Offline terefang

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Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« on: May 29, 2024, 01:09:43 PM »
first and foremost, keep up the good work !

i may be old-skool but i was instantly hooked not even reading but just flipping thru it !!!

one thing that cought my eye instantly was the decoupling of coin monetary value to raw material value.

i know in many circles that is a hot discussed topic, and i for my part usually try to use my own pseudo-fantasy-post-medieval economy and coinage system.

yet what did not make sense to me is the prices/pay relation of Ale/Beer vs Wages/Jobs, or is there something else that i miss ?

eg. are the Wages netto or brutto ?


i will post more later

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2024, 01:25:31 PM »
The prices actually came from multiple sources, including several medieval price lists on collegiate sites.

Now, once I had those (which used the more common pricing found in medieval england), I converted all such prices to coppers, and then converted to copper/bronze/silver/gold etc from there using those base copper values.




Offline terefang

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2024, 01:59:45 PM »
yeah but somehow the realism part is missing.

no adventurer will take a job as a guard ... if they can only buy 4 beers for it per day, but no food or accommodations.

Offline terefang

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2024, 02:26:42 PM »
also ... page 109: the following example caused serious head-scratching:

Quote
Example: You are playing a Wood Elven  Druid/Ranger. Wood Elves receive 2 Mana from their Kin. You would also get 5 Mana from you Druid Vocational Kit, and 3 Mana from your Ranger Vocational Kit, giving you a total of 10 Base Mana.

This also means you have 2 DPs to spend on the Mana skill, and you have an Insight of 3. So that gives you a total of 5 for your Skill Bonus. You also have the Special Skill of Arcane Scholar, so get +1 Mana per level.  This gives you a total starting mana of 21: (5 skill x 2) + 10 Base + 1 Special

which i could easily understand what was done in the first paragraph, for the second paragraph it took me some time, flipping around and re-reading the rules to really understand why and how this came about.

i also showed this to several gaming friends and most came to the same conclusion.

for a "freshy" gamer – which is possible the primary target for such examples – they will be hard-pressed to understand anything.

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2024, 03:00:25 PM »
I will see about clarifying it (but comments like this last one should be in the Fantasy Express Playtesting forum)

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2024, 08:16:19 AM »
Does this read better?

 
00Mana.jpg
* 00Mana.jpg
(Filesize: 97.93 KB)
(Dimensions: 373x682, Views: 522)
 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 08:25:02 AM by Rasyr »

Offline terefang

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2024, 12:40:02 PM »
ok, back to the pricing issue.

i usually evaluate job wages not only by their buying power but also by the "whole package" if that exists.

a good way that has served me well was the Ale/Beer comparison.

Ale and beer were crucial in medieval times not only as a substitute for unsafe drinking water but also as significant sources of energy and nutrition.

Clean Water Substitute
1. Water Purification: During the brewing process, water is boiled, which kills harmful pathogens and bacteria. This made ale and beer safer to drink than untreated water from rivers, wells, and other sources, which were often contaminated.

Source of Energy and Nutrition
1. Caloric Content: Ale and beer provided a substantial amount of calories. In an era where food security was a constant concern, these beverages contributed to the daily caloric intake, especially for laborers who required a high-energy diet to sustain their physically demanding work.
   
2. Nutrient-Rich Ingredients: The grains used in brewing, such as barley, wheat, and oats, were rich in carbohydrates, vitamins (especially B vitamins), and minerals. When fermented, they retained many of these nutrients, making ale and beer a nutritious drink.

3. Protein and Fiber: Unfiltered ales and beers contained residual yeast, which added protein and fiber to the diet. This was particularly important during the winter months or times of poor harvests when other sources of protein and fiber might be scarce.

4. Hydration and Electrolytes: While alcoholic beverages do have a diuretic effect, the lower alcohol content of medieval ales and beers (compared to modern varieties) meant they could still contribute to hydration. Additionally, the brewing process left minerals in the drink, which helped replenish electrolytes lost during hard labor.

Social and Cultural Importance
1. Daily Consumption: Ale and beer were staple beverages, consumed daily by people of all ages, including children. They were often part of every meal, from breakfast to dinner, ensuring a consistent intake of energy and nutrients throughout the day.

2. Community and Economy: Brewing was often a communal activity, with households or local taverns producing their own ale and beer. This fostered social bonds and contributed to the local economy. In monasteries, brewing was an important economic activity, providing monks with sustenance and a means of income through sales.

Historical Evidence
1. Dietary Records: Historical records, including household accounts and monastic annals, show that ale and beer were essential components of the medieval diet. For example, workers on estates were often provided with daily rations of ale as part of their compensation.
   
2. Archaeological Findings: Excavations of medieval sites frequently uncover brewing equipment, such as vats, barrels, and remnants of malted grain, indicating the widespread and routine nature of beer production and consumption.

Ale and beer in medieval times were more than just beverages; they were vital components of daily life, offering a safer alternative to water, a reliable source of energy and nutrition, and playing a central role in social and economic activities. The brewing and consumption of these drinks were deeply embedded in the cultural and practical aspects of medieval society.

Unsuitability for Player Characters in Roleplaying Games
In the context of a roleplaying game, player characters (PCs) typically engage in adventures and quests that require resources and tools. The economic reality where the lowest wage job pays only the equivalent of 4 pints of beer per day would be entirely unsuitable for PCs for the following reasons:

1. Resource Acquisition:
   - Equipment and Supplies: PCs need to purchase equipment, weapons, armor, and other supplies to succeed in their quests. An income equivalent to 4 pints of beer per day would be insufficient to acquire even the most basic adventuring gear.
   - Living Expenses: PCs also need to afford lodging, food, and other daily expenses while traveling or resting. Such low wages would make it impossible for them to sustain themselves during their adventures.

2. Motivation and Engagement:
   - Reward and Incentive: The low wage offers little to no incentive for PCs to take on challenging and dangerous tasks. Adventurers are motivated by the promise of significant rewards, both monetary and otherwise, which such wages cannot provide.
   - Character Development: Part of the appeal of roleplaying games is the development and progression of characters. With such meager earnings, PCs would struggle to progress and improve, leading to a lackluster and unengaging gaming experience.

3. Narrative Consistency:
   - Economic Disparity: The game's narrative would suffer from the inconsistency of having heroic characters who are unable to afford basic necessities. This disparity can break the immersion and believability of the game world.
   - Adventure Feasibility: Many adventures and quests assume that PCs have the resources and capabilities to undertake significant challenges. A wage equivalent to 4 pints of beer per day undermines the feasibility of these adventures.

Conclusion
The scenario where the lowest wage job pays only the equivalent of 4 pints of beer per day highlights a fundamental misalignment between wages and the cost of living. For player characters in a roleplaying game, such low wages are entirely unsuitable, as they undermine the ability to acquire necessary resources, diminish motivation and engagement, and disrupt narrative consistency. To ensure a fulfilling and immersive gaming experience, PCs need access to adequate resources and rewards that reflect their efforts and adventures.


sorry but i used chatgpt to translate my german
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 12:53:20 PM by terefang »

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2024, 12:53:34 PM »
one thing to keep in ind regarding prices is that they are the prices for adventurers, for transients as such (I was not trying to make it 100% historically accurate)

According to https://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html (which was one of several sources that I used)

Ale (a gallon) costs anywhere from  0.75d to 1.25d or 1d per gallon

there are 4 pints per gallon

d = 1 pence, which equals 4 farthings.

1 farthing = 1 cp in my pricing system

so ale (average serving of 1 pint) costs 1 cp.


I may need to adjust wages a little bit, but as for the prices, I think that they fit what I was going for (a system where silver and gold is very rare....)

am I making sense here?

Offline terefang

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2024, 05:20:17 PM »
yes , the prices seem about right, depending on what economy you assume.

i actually also referenced the site you where using.

my case is actually mentioned on the page:

Quote
Of course, a price list is a misleading guide to a feudal economy, because so many goods were either produced within a household, or supplied by a lord. Retainers could get money, but they would also get food, lodging, weapons (sometimes), and cloth. Knights Templar were provided with clothes, horses, and armor.

since you also standardized on the farthing , knowing that i can more easily relate your stuff to mine.

comparing my notes and the web-site with your wages, you seem to be of by at least 4 – which could be explained by a confusion between penny and farthings.


Examples:
  • The (unskilled) Laborer is given as £2/year (max.). since 1£ == 240d, lets assume for simplicity he earns around 1d/day which would make it 4cp/day, but that would also assume that his boss provides sufficient food and shelter and working equipment, if any.
  • The regular army infantry man is given as 8d/day which would make it 24cp/day, but that would also assume that he is provided sufficient food, shelter, uniform/armor and weapons/shield

for jobs that dont provide food, shelter, and equipment the wages would be way more higher ×5-20. (eg. operational/living expenses)

for comparison: a imperial roman low foot soldier would receive an equivalent of 10d/day (40cp/day) with food, shelter, and equipment on top – which was actually the basis for joining, receiving full equivalent pay and having no living expenses. the only drawback being not being paid regularly, but by availability/campaign.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 05:34:36 PM by terefang »

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2024, 05:38:06 PM »
Yeah, I have been thinking that perhaps  the wages I listed might be a little low

Was also thinking that perhaps I could expand my pricing tables into something larger with more items and details as well.....

Offline terefang

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2024, 07:02:59 AM »
do you want to look at the stuff that i have assembled for my gaming needs ?

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2024, 07:39:11 AM »
do you want to look at the stuff that i have assembled for my gaming needs ?

Yes, if you can keep it relatively simple.

Please keep in mind a couple of things.....

I am aiming for consistant, not historically accurate
I need to keep things relatively simple for the core rules (i.e. I won't be making major changes at this point, and I am highly resistant to changes that might alter my current page count)

Having said that,  My lists in the rules is meant mainly for adventurers (and GMs) as a guideline, not set in stone. And I am willing to update what I currently have in the rules (additions would be via a separate product)


Offline terefang

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2024, 10:36:51 AM »
this is a document i have been working on for decades.

on the first page – a conversion table of different economic systems (i already mapped FX)

then important measurements

and then various equipment

please note that cost are given in two formats: coins and florin (last two columns on page one)

the baseline economy is gold scarce (almost exclusively used by royalty or in jewelery), with silver usually handled by middle and upper classes.

governments usually issue two types of coins: symbolic base metal coins usually used for internal trade and valuable metal coins for foreign trade.

then there is the florin (coin) that adventurers usually dig up from dungeons and which is strangely accepted by anyone for face value, but nobody knows who was the original creator.

the florin also doubles as a sort of accounting standard.

so the coin symbols (£, ¥, $, p, ¢, ƒ) are basically only multipliers and only secondary indicate a particular metal.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 10:41:38 AM by terefang »

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2024, 10:40:33 AM »
Just started my work day, but I cannot wait to take a look at it.

I have also created a thread regarding prices and wages in the FX Playtest forum. be sure to check it out.

Offline Rasyr

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Re: Perceptions from a quick Flipthru of Beta version 0.28
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2024, 11:12:59 AM »
have done a quick overview

This looks very interesting, but I am confused on some things like the tables on the last page.

I am presuming that the lists on page 7 are essentially basic equipement lists for specific types of  adventures?