RM Revision

[Fidoric]

I have read character law, spell law and arms law.
The first I found to be a good product overall but it brings nothing really new, keeps the (IMHO) antediluvian level-based RR table rather than use skill versus skill contest.
I think the second is rather useless. It's just a streamlined version of RMSS spell law with only some small bits of innovation (ritual casting for example).
OTOH, Arms law is a very good product. They have addressed many perks of older versions and I especially like the renewal of armor types and the use of specialized skills to decrease situational maluses.

[imported_Rasyr]

I have written reviews and put them on my personal website ( http://www.wizlair.net ) if you would like to read them.

To put it shortly, the power of directed spell (elemental) casters has been increased dramatically, and the power of casters who specialize in RR-based spells has been completely nerfed.

Here is something I recently wrote on the rpg.net forums..

Resistance Rolls -- The whole concept of the RR is that with all things being equal, and with a median casting roll, if the attacker and defender are the same level, then the defender has to roll 50 or better to make his RR. It was also based on the fact that the better your casting roll the better the Target Number (TN) for the RR, and the worse the roll, the worse the TN (from the attacker's viewpoint). The defender also had a number of potential modifiers that could aid his RR.

With the removal of the Base Attack Roll (BAR) table, there are no more modifiers on the attacker's side, so the starting TN from the RR table (which does not seem to have changed), remains the same, regardless of how good the roll is. However, the defender still gets all those potential modifiers. This essentially makes most RR-based spells useless, and effectively destroys the value of any profession that relies on RR-based spells (such as the Mentalist).

Bolt Spells -- One thing I noticed early on in reading the revision, is that each and every weapon must still be specialized. In prior versions of RM, the caster was required to specialize in each type of directed spell. Fire Bolts were different from Water Bolts and from Lightning Bolts from Strike spells, etc. Now, in this revision, the spell user can simply specialize in "Elemental Bolts" and use that bonus for all the different elemental bolts. So where non-spell-users have to specialize in each individual weapon, the Magician (and other spell users) only have to specialize in "Directed Spells: Elemental Bolts". That is a HUGE power boost for the Magician.

Combine this with how much MORE powerful the elemental attack tables are compared to prior versions, and the fact that Magicians get Combat Training Skills as Professional Skills, and it becomes obvious that there was a deliberate and strong move to increase the power of Magicians, and this this also works as another HUGE power boost for them.

[Fidoric]

Reading ICE forum this afternoon, I got the feeling that this play test is not very productive. Somehow, I feel the beta version is already almost a release candidate with not much room for further changes. I hope I am wrong in that.
Those forums are becoming caricature. Whatever anyone says, you will automatically find others to say the contrary and so on, ad nauseam...
This play test is IMO not as efficient as the one made for Novus: a bunch of play testers with an author to rule them all. They are lacking direction I think or maybe reviewers are being ignored by the author. I can't find many constructive criticisms or debates led by an author and then a decision to the discussions.
I guess we have to wait and see.

[imported_Rasyr]

Reading ICE forum this afternoon, I got the feeling that this play test is not very productive. Somehow, I feel the beta version is already almost a release candidate with not much room for further changes. I hope I am wrong in that.

Unfortunately, it appears that Vroomfogle has publicly stated someplace that the manuscript was unlikely to be changed at all (somebody else reposted his comment on rpg.net). That it is essentially in almost final form.

Those forums are becoming caricature. Whatever anyone says, you will automatically find others to say the contrary and so on, ad nauseam...
This play test is IMO not as efficient as the one made for Novus: a bunch of play testers with an author to rule them all. They are lacking direction I think or maybe reviewers are being ignored by the author. I can't find many constructive criticisms or debates led by an author and then a decision to the discussions.
I guess we have to wait and see.

Their "playtest" isn't even a true playtest. A true playtest would be willing to change and adjust things that actual players, who do not play in the same style as the authors, find wrong with the system. But they refuse to even acknowledge that they might have problems with the system.

Essentially, they are basically treating everybody as idiots, and those fans ARE going to catch on, and are going to drop them like a hot potato.  Like it or not, this revision is spelling the death of Rolemaster as any sort of seriously considered system.

[samwise7]

I did have a few of my YouTube subscribers ask me about my opinion on the new revision, and I told them the truth, I'm not really interested in it.  I'll never throw away my old RM stuff, but unless I run a 1-shot of it, or perhaps a mini-campaign I don't see myself ever really using them again.  RM would have to go through a significant change for me to really consider it again.  I did buy the RM Classic PDFs, but that was mainly because I only had RMSS stuff and was curious how the older edition would play with a bunch of optional rules that the playtesters and authors came up with.  I gave them a skimming read, but I haven't done anything with them.  Put it down to the fact that I like buying RPGs even if I don't have time to really read them over.  hehe.  I'm never one to wish a company to fail, but if they don't listen to their audience or the suggestions of playtesters then they are most likely digging their own grave. 

Whenever I tell people about Novus I feel honored that some of my ideas made it into the final version.  I just showed my playtest group the printed version of Novus that I have (POD) and they were really excited to see it in a physical RPG format.  They were very impressed that Tim Dugger listened to our feedback and made changes accordingly, as it seems that is a rather rare thing these days...

[imported_Rasyr]

Whenever I tell people about Novus I feel honored that some of my ideas made it into the final version.  I just showed my playtest group the printed version of Novus that I have (POD) and they were really excited to see it in a physical RPG format.  They were very impressed that Tim Dugger listened to our feedback and made changes accordingly, as it seems that is a rather rare thing these days...

I don't hold a monopoly on good ideas. I do have to think and consider how a single idea may impact other areas of the rules, but that is par for the course. Writing Novus was actually easy compared to all of the issues involved in revising RM that need to be covered

[samwise7]

Starting out with a brand new RPG is probably easier than revising a system that has a following already.

[imported_Rasyr]

Easier than revising a system that had such a diverse group of followers, where there were 2 separate versions that needed to be unified. Most Certainly...

A revision, any revision needs to accomplish 2 main goals to be successful......

1) It needs to be attractive to new players

2) It needs to be able to be attractive and able to support the same style(s) of play found in prior versions.

RMU succeeds at neither.

[Sunwolf]

New to this Forum, but some may remember me from the ICE forums
From what I have seen at least some of the comments from reviewers and actual playtesters are being looked at by the new ICE, how closely can't say until they come out with the next Playtest version.  Right now don't have any positive or negative hopes for the Rolemaster Revision just following along to see what they come up with.  Generally HARP is more to my test because of the less complicated rules.  It is easier to add complexity to a solid base then take complexity out.

[imported_Rasyr]

New to this Forum, but some may remember me from the ICE forums

Welcome! And yes, I do remember you.

From what I have seen at least some of the comments from reviewers and actual playtesters are being looked at by the new ICE, how closely can't say until they come out with the next Playtest version.  Right now don't have any positive or negative hopes for the Rolemaster Revision just following along to see what they come up with. 

No telling how long it might be until the next playtest version comes out. From my understanding, they intend on releasing the other 2 "core" books in playtest version as well, and haven't gotten around to that yet either.

Generally HARP is more to my test because of the less complicated rules.  It is easier to add complexity to a solid base then take complexity out.

Then, I would definitely be interested in hearing your opinions of Novus (and if you haven't gotten a copy yet, you can always go back to the main FHG site, and peruse the Novus TOC, as all of the core rules can be found from that page), though you should likely start a new thread for that conversation. I love feedback, it is how I make things better in the future!!

[Sunwolf]

Well supposedly there will be a Round 2 Beta document.
This would be good since there are some legitimate concerns with the current Beta.
Of course the big problem is a lot of the discussions on the issues are right on the edge of being a Flame War.
Happy things are nicer on this Forum.
Hopefully when Novus and FireHawk become long established they want fall into the pitfall of people having entrenched, inflexible opinions

[imported_Rasyr]

You would think that they would finish releasing the "round 1" documents before they start on "round 2"....

If you want to read my opinions on the Beta, I suggest visiting my personal website ( http://www.wizlair.net ) as I won't repeat those opinions here.

As for the "edge of Flame War" comment, that sort of situation happened often when folks were discussing one version of RM over the other. It is going to continue in revision discussions because each "camp" wants the revision to look like their favorite version - and unfortunately, this revision will please neither version....

I spent a couple of years trying to figure out a way to try an keep both camps happy because one inflexible rule of doing a revision is that you WILL lose customers who stay with the old version. Therefore, your new version has to appeal to new customers as well.

Unfortunately, from what I saw, the revision won't appeal to many in either camp (which is why they are at odds with one another - as this is supposedly a "beta", both camps think that they can still influence the end result to be closer to what they want, so they argue for it strongly, which leads to the flame war mentality of trying to show how their version is better).

From what others have told me, they get the feeling that the first beta released was close to the what they intend to make the final version (i.e. don't expect many changes in "round 2"). And is truly the case, then they will cause more problems in the long run.

[Fidoric]

Of course the big problem is a lot of the discussions on the issues are right on the edge of being a Flame War.
Happy things are nicer on this Forum.
Hopefully when Novus and FireHawk become long established they want fall into the pitfall of people having entrenched, inflexible opinions

That's precisely why I don't take part in those forums any more. Too many peoples are too sure to know THE truth.

[witchking20k]

Just wanted to post as although this last message is from 2013....the revision is still ongoing....

[Rasyr]

have they made many changes since 2013?