Mounted Combat

[Fidoric]

I am trying to figure out how to handle mounted combat with quick and dirty rules, that is simple modifiers to AP, DEF, AB, Damage (like other combat moves) and maybe AR.

I think there are two main advantages in mounted combat :

1. increased line of sight on a battlefield,
2. improved mobility.

I am not sure whether the first point is relevant in most roleplaying games or not. There are no rules for that when dismounted so certainly no need for them when mounted. Maybe it just offers the possibility to see beyond a wall or a crowd.
For the second point, you just have to use the mount base movement instead of the rider's.

As for the effects of being mounted on attack resolution (AP, DEF, AR, AB, Damage), I would like to have your opinions. Though I am not a rider, I imagine :

3. Directing your horse while fighting is certainly more difficult than doing either separately. So I would make it a complex action requiring 6 AP. That means basically 1 attack every other round (except maybe with specific talents or boon points). I would the make a riding skill check vs TN20 with +/- 1 to the attack roll for each 3 points above/below 20. Boon points could be used to reduce required AP on a 1/1 basis.
4. I would lower DEF by 2 points to simulate the reduced dodging possibilities (that is if you mean to stay on your horse). Maybe the bulk of your mount may be a kind of protection and this -2 mod is not relevant ?
5. I can't see any influence of mounted combat on AR, except that without polearms dismounted opponents may be more likely to hit your legs. I am not sure it's worth a ruling though.
6. Damage. I see two points there.
6a. When charging, the increased momentum will allow tremendous damage (something like moving strike with the possibility to use all 5 AP and maybe an increased damage multiplier to make for the momentum, +10 damage by AP for example with polearms...).
6b. When fighting from horseback, I imagine that you are neither as accurate nor as powerful than when swinging your sword with your feet on the ground. So I suggest a -2 to damage.

From these considerations, I would say for mounted combat :
- Make a Riding skill check TN20 :
- AB +/- 1 by 3 points of difference
- AP +2 (any boon point may reduce required AP by one (allowing 1 attack per round).
- DEF -2
- Damage : -2 if "static", +xx if charging
- AR + 0

What do you think of this ?

[imported_Rasyr]

I was going to go through your post and going to respond to it on a point by point basis when I realized that Mounted Combat isn't going to be a single, simple maneuver all on its own. It is actually several different things (note that the following presumes that all mounts are horses):

• Mounted Charge - This actually breaks down into several different subcategories on its own. And both of these will be impacted by the length of the weapons being used. For example, Spears and Pole Arms are devastating weapons against mounted attacks, especially if the foe can set the weapon. In all such cases of a mounted rider approaching an unmounted foe, the one with the longer weapon is going to get a bonus to initiative, that may allow him to go first.
  
  
  • Mounted Charge vs. Mounted Foe - as mentioned above, weapon length will be a factor, but in most cases, the weapons will be either a lance, or a one-handed weapon of some sort.
    
    
  • Mounted Charge vs unMounted Foe - In this instance, the foe's weapon is important, especially if it can be set against the charge (in which case it strikes first and can break the charge). Additionally, the mount itself is and can be used as a weapon, using its sheer bulk to bash into unmounted foes, hard enough to knock them down if needed, not to mention the mount's natural attacks.
    
    
  
  

[/li]
[li]Mounted Combat vs. Mounted Combat -  This is actually the easiest to resolve, I think. Both Combatants are on equal footing, as it were. So there would be no benefit to either for AB. As for DEF, since they are sitting down, my first inclination would be to take away their Speed bonus, but that would be unfair to some characters. So, I think a static -5 modifier to DEF would work well. Use a simple Riding roll (to control the mount). In most cases, the foe will attack the rider, not the mount, but attack on the mount aren't unheard of.

[/li]
[li]Mounted Combat vs unMounted Combat - Here, we are specifically discussing a non-charging situation. The foe on the ground actually has 2 targets, the mounted fighter and the mount itself. For example, if you stab a horse, it WILL rear, which will require the rider to make a roll to control the mount (modified by the damage actually taken). Nor will this cover the mounted rider closing with the unmounted foe. The mounted combatant will likely get a bonus to AB from his height over his other foe. Heck, against SOME foes (Halflings, Kolbolds, etc.), trying to attack an unmounted foe would be near impossible due to height and reach issues.

[/li]
[/list]

What I would like to do is to come up with some very simple guidelines for covering these situations, without having to fully detail every single instance or possibility

[/list]

[Fidoric]

I fully agree with you Rasyr, keep it a simple thing.
In a charging situation, I would say that the weapon length and the way it is wielded are almost the only relevant factors in determining initiative.
I think there's no way a character receiving a charge with a sword can win the initiative over a charging character with a lance. The sword-wielding character may dodge and evade the strike and indeed be the first to land a blow, but the first opportunity is for the charging lancer. It can be the reverse if it's a mounted sword wielder who attack a grounded lancer set against his charge.

In the case of a charge situation, maybe we can consider that a weapon's reach is the (only ?) relevant factor to determine initiative.

As for the -5 penalty to DEF, I think it is too harsh. On p13 (v0.6), it is said :

If your character is prone, caught completely unawares (which is different from just being surprised) or unable to move for any reason, his DEF would be 12 + any magical bonuses.

With a -5 penalty a average character's (Spd +0) defense drops to 10, which is less than a prone character. Maybe you could consider using 12+spd for a mounted character's DEF, making it an effective -3 DEF. That's better than a prone character and still makes a difference between quick and dead slow characters.

[imported_Rasyr]

Charging -- Yes, weapon length is a huge factor. Pole Arms (and I would class a lance as a Pole Arm for this) should always go before shorter weapons. However, having said that, there is always the "I wait until almost the last moment, then dodge out of the way" that can be done by those with a higher initiative.

So, basically, it would be an init roll, but with pole arms going first, but dodges going before pole arms

Sigh.. there are just so many conditional possibilities that it isn't funny.....

Defense -- Don't forget that all characters also get a +1 for every 5 skill ranks in their best melee weapon skill. But even then, I can still agree to making it a -3 to DEF for being mounted.

[imported_Rasyr]

Been doing some thinking.....

Mounted Combat - player must make Riding skill roll to control the mount in combat (untrained mounts: TN 23; trained mounts: TN 18; roll once per round as action that does NOT cost AP). Rider gets -3 to DEF, but gains +2 to AB against unmounted foes, and any attacks cost 1 extra AP more than normal. This does not include any sort of Mounted Charge or moving attack.

Mounted Charge* - A Mounted Charge requires +4 AP (8 AP in total). For each AP spent in moving (a maximum of 5 of the AP may be spent moving***), the character adds an additional amount of damage equal to 15 x pace of mount (i.e. does 30, 45, or 60 additional hits).  This attack gains a +4 to AB, but the rider also gets a -4 to his DEF. An unmounted foe attempting to dodge a Mounted Charge at the last minute gets double the normal bonus to DEF against the Mounted Charge.

* = If the rider or the foe has a lance (a long spear) or other weapon from the Pole Arm category and the other combatant does not, then the longer weapon will strike first regardless of initiative. However, this does not change the actual initiative, and all other actions will follow the normal initiative order.

*** == Mount may move at 2x normal pace for each of the 5 AP allowed for movement, or move at 3x normal pace for 4 AP worth of movement (still costing 5 AP in total - requires Riding skill roll; TN 25), or move at 4x normal pace for 3 AP worth of movement (requires Riding skill; TN 30).

Okay, so how does that look/sound?  I figured that that would likely be the simplest method of dealing with it and with the possible variables.

[Fidoric]

Charging -- Yes, weapon length is a huge factor. Pole Arms (and I would class a lance as a Pole Arm for this) should always go before shorter weapons. However, having said that, there is always the "I wait until almost the last moment, then dodge out of the way" that can be done by those with a higher initiative.

I would say that with a good maneuver (boon points), against a charging lancer, if you manage to dodge his attack and move to his unprotected side (no shield), you put him in a difficult position : no shield, decreased DEF, unable to parry with his weapon...

For mounted combat, I think your proposed rules are both simple and neat. I would still add +2 AP to attacks though , meaning 1 attack every other round or 1 attack per round with a -4 penalty (quick attack). Besides, a "mounted warrior" talent cold reduce this to +1 AP, making it possible for trained horseback fighters to attack every round without penalties.

[imported_Rasyr]

Hmm... that is a good suggestion. I had not thought about having a talent that reduced the AP costs of an attack (it could reduce the AP required for a Mounted Charge as well).

I will try to write up a more "official" entry for these.

Anybody else have any comments and/or suggestions and/or fireballs of doom?

[imported_Rasyr]

Hmmm.... in thinking about this some more, I like the idea of mixing a couple of Talents in there.

For example, in addition to the above, discussed rules, we could have

Mounted Combat I - Without this Talent, both AB and DEF receive a -5 modifier in addition those modifiers already listed in Mounted Combat and Mounted Charge

Mounted Combat II - reduces the total AP required to make attacks through Mounted Combat and Mounted Charge

And I was already planning on adding in:

Horse Archery - no range pen. when astride a non-moving horse 1/2 pen on moving horse, short bow only

I should likely change that to Mounted Archery...

And I am sure that there other possibilities as well...

[imported_Rasyr]

the more that I think about it, a mounted combatant actually gets an AB minus against an unmounted foe because the unmounted foe has more mobility. However, while the advantage from height would not give an attack bonus, it would give a damage bonus (gravity is your friend - sometimes), so I am thinking of changing the +2 from AB to a -2 and giving a +2 to Base Damage for Mounted Combat against an unmounted foe

[Fidoric]

I fear you have lost me along the way...
To sum up :
Basic mounted combat modification : DEF-3, AP+1 (normal attack for 5 AP)
Charging mounted combat mods : AB+4, DEF -4, AP +4 (normal attack for 8 AP), huge bonuses to damage.

No mounted combat talent : cumulative DEF-5, AB -5 --> mounted combat is DEF -8, AB-5, AP +1 (if it is right, then the average rider will have DEF=7 ?)
Mounted combat 1 : as above
Mounted combat 2 : DEF-3, AP +0 (still have one AP for perception rolls...)

Is that right ?
I feel that any training in riding will include some "maneuvering on the horse's back". Maybe penalties to DEF and AB should drop with any skill in riding. The talents could then reduce  further AB penalty and AP cost ?
What do you think about :
- talents in mounted combat both require riding skill as a prerequisite.
- with no talent and no riding skill : AB-5, DEF -3, AP+2
- with no talent but some riding skill ranks : AB-2, DEF-2, AP+2
- mounted combat 1 : AB -1, DEF-2, AP+1, base damage +1
- mounted combat 2 : AB 0, DEF -2, AP+0, base damage +2
 Charging maneuvers add a cumulative +4 AB, -4 DEF, +awful damage ?

[imported_Rasyr]

Mounted Combat I (cost: 3 CP; prerequisite: 1+ rank(s) in riding) - any attempts at Mounted Combat, or Mounted Charge without this Talent gives a -5 modifier to both AB and DEF. Any modifiers given in the Special Situation descriptions have this applied to it (i.e. a -3 to DEF becomes a -8 to DEF if character does not have this Talent; a +4 to AB )

Mounted Combat II - (cost: 3 CP; prerequisites: Mounted Combat I) - AP for Mounted Combat attacks is reduced by 1. AP for Mounted Charge is reduced by 2 AP.

Then we have:

Mounted Combat - player must make Riding skill roll to control the mount in combat (untrained mounts: TN 23; trained mounts: TN 18; roll once per round; this roll does NOT cost AP). Rider gets -3 to DEF, and -2 to AB, but Base Damage is increased by 2 points against unmounted foes (these 3 modifiers do NOT apply against mounted foes), and any attacks made while mounted cost 2 extra AP more than normal. This does not include any sort of Mounted Charge or moving attack.

Mounted Charge* - A Mounted Charge requires +4 AP (8 AP in total). For each AP spent in moving (a maximum of 5 of the AP may be spent moving**), the character adds an additional amount of damage equal to 15 x pace of mount (i.e. does 30, 45, or 60 additional hits).  This attack gains a +4 to AB, but the rider also gets a -4 to his DEF. An unmounted foe attempting to dodge a Mounted Charge at the last minute gets double the normal bonus to DEF against the Mounted Charge.

= If the rider or the foe has a lance (a long spear) or other weapon from the Pole Arm category and the other combatant does not, then the longer weapon will strike first regardless of initiative. However, this does not change the actual initiative, and all other actions will follow the normal initiative order.

*** == Mount may move at 2x normal pace for each of the 5 AP allowed for movement, or move at 3x normal pace for 4 AP worth of movement (still costing 5 AP in total - requires Riding skill roll; TN 25), or move at 4x normal pace for 3 AP worth of movement (requires Riding skill; TN 30).


I hope that is a little clearer. I still have to write up everything properly.

[Fidoric]

I think it's good that way. Perhaps you could add something about the consequences of boons/snags on the initial riding skill roll ?
1 snag could make you unable to attack, while boons may reduce attacks AP cost or AB/DEF penalties ?

[imported_Rasyr]

How are these for the final write-ups?

Special Situations
Mounted Charge: This is similar to a moving attack, but performed while the character is mounted, and thus it is the mount that is doing the moving. Performing a Mounted Charge requires a total of 8 Action Points (AP), 4 more than is required for a normal attack. If the character has the Talent, Mounted Combat II, then the charge will only require 6 AP.
If the character has the Talent, Mounted Combat I, then he has a +4 modifier to his Attack Bonus (AB) and a -4 modifier to his DEF. Without that Talent, the character has a -1 to his AB and a -9 to his DEF.

When making charging attacks, the character will deal an extra amount of damage equal to 15 times the pace of his mount, and it must have a pace of at least 2x its normal movement rate. If his mount is moving at 2x its normal pace, the attack will deal an extra 30 hit points of damage. If the mount is moving at 3x its normal pace, the attack will deal an extra 45 hit points of damage. If the mount is moving at 4x its normal pace, then the attack will deal an extra 60 hit points of damage.

Moving at 2x the mount's normal base movement rate will require a Riding skill roll (TN 20). Moving at 3x the mount's base movement rate will require a Riding skill roll (TN 25), and moving at 4x the mount's base movement rate will require a Riding skill roll (TN 30). These Riding skill rolls do no require or use any of the character's Action Points.

When making a Mounted Charge, if one of the combatants has a lance, a long spear, or other weapon from the Pole Arm family of weapons and the other does not, then the combatant with the longer weapon will resolve his attack first, regardless of initiative order. All other actions will be determined by initiative normally.

If a Mounted Charge is being made against an unmounted foe, and that foe decides to use Dodge in an attempt to avoid the charge. If the dodging character waits until the last moment to perform the Dodge (i.e. such as with Canceling an Action), the modifier to his DEF will be doubled before being applied.

Mounted Combat: To make attacks while mounted, the character must make a Riding skill roll each round. This roll will cost the character no Action Points, and it has a TN of 23 if the mount is untrained for combat and a TN of 18 if the mount has been trained for combat.

Attacks against other mounted foes, when neither combatant is involved in a Mounted Charge, have a -0 DEF modifier and a -0 Attack Bonus (AB) modifier. If the character does not have the Mounted Combat I Talent, these modifiers are -5 and -5 respectively.

Attacks against foes that are not mounted have a -3 DEF modifier and a -2 AB modifier. If the character does not have the Mounted Combat I Talent, these modifiers are -8 and -7 respectively.

All mounted attacks, excluded Mounted Charges, which are covered separately, require an extra 2 Action Points (AP) to perform. If the character has the Mounted Combat II Talent, then attacks only require 1 extra AP to perform.

Talents

MOUNTED COMBAT I
Cost: 3
Trainable: Yes
Description: In order to acquire this Talent, the character needs to have 1 or more ranks in the Riding skill. This Talent reduces the modifiers given under Mounted Combat in the Special Situations section of the Combat Chapter (p. ) by 5 (-8 to DEF and -7 to AB become -3 and -2 respectively).

MOUNTED COMBAT II
Cost: 3
Trainable: Yes
Description: This Talent requires that the character already possesses the Mounted Combat I Talent. With this Talent, the character becomes more proficient in making mounted attacks. The total number of Action Points (AP) that the character must use for Mounted Combat (see p. ) are reduced by 1 and for Mounted Charges (see p. ) are reduced by 2.

[Fidoric]

I think it's a good final version. One more question though : why is there a riding manoeuvre required to perform a mounted attack but none for a mounted charge ? And you could also explicit the outcomes of this riding test. Is it an all-or-nothing matter (ie if you miss this roll, you are unable to attack) or is there a progressive bonus/malus ?

Fidoric (with no malevolent intentions, I promise !) 

[imported_Rasyr]

1) cause I forgot to add in the riding roll for the charge....

2) a -1 to AB for every point that the roll is missed by sounds like a good potential result...

3) the point of posting it here IS to get feedback to catch these things....