Training Package Poll?

[imported_Rasyr]

In working on Novus/Harn stuff, one thing that I was considering including was Training Packages.

My initial idea is that all Training Packages cost 15 Character Points, and that they can ONLY be gained during character creation (i.e. before 1st level), and that a character may only ever have one Training Package.

In short, the Training Package (working almost identically to the Background Packages) would replace 15 of the 30 Character Points that a character normally receives. Unlike Backgrounds, however, all skill ranks (20 in total) would be specifically assigned. In many Backgrounds, the Combat Skill ranks are left open for the player to place. For Training Packages, if any included weapon skills, those would be specifically assigned.

These Training Packages would have to be for all of the common sort of jobs, and also for specific Guilds (such as the Guild of Arcane Lore - Harnic mages) since that would only leave 15 points for development (enough for a couple of spells and not much more....). Though, on thinking about it, Shek-P'var Training Packages could be Convocation specific and include a spell or two as well...

Now, I am considering this for the Novus/Harn doc, but I would also be remiss if I did not consider it for the core rules as well. So, I have setup the poll, and I would appreciate feedback on this idea.

Also please note that you will need to be logged in to see the thread that this notification links you to (just like with the last poll - about stat generation methods).

Thanks in advance for responding!!!

[imported_Rasyr]

Also, how about suggesting some potential Training Packages to include?

I think that may 15 to 20 to choose from would be interesting...

[imported_Rasyr]

Here is a list of some potential Training Packages off the top of my head...

[li]Adventurer -- this would contain skills most common to adventuring[/li]
[li]Amateur Mage -- This would be mainly for those who want to learn a little magic. It would not contain any spells.[/li]
[li]Bounty Hunter -- a guy who tracks and hunts other people for profit[/li]
[li]Bowyer/Fletcher -- crafter skilled in the making of bows and arrows (or crossbows and bolts)[/li]
[li]Burglar -- Basically, a second story man. good at climbing and opening locks and such.[/li]
[li]City Guard -- Every town has these. Sometimes, it might help to understand how they work, or have friends still working for them... [/li]
[li]Guild Mage -- only open to Mages (Classic or Dual), includes such things as requiring that the character pay dues, but also gives him free access to a research library when in town....[/li]
[li]Hunter -- spends a lot of time in the wilderness hunting various types of game.[/li]
[li]Knight -- this one would be restricted to only those of an Upper Class Urban background, unless the character is of another race (i.e. not human)[/li]
[li]Pickpocket -- one who often makes his living stealing from others, from their actual person instead of their home. [/li]
[li]Pilgrim -- a religious traveller, often journeys to visit various sights holy to his religion[/li]
[li]Scout -- at home in the wilderness and operating in advance of a group. Also operates in a stealthy manner[/li]
[li]Soldier -- a professional warrior, often operating on the fringes of the kingdom, or in special outposts or duty stations -- similar to the City Guard in many ways, but less law enforcement and more actual battle... [/li]
[li]Trader -- a merchant of some type, who specializes in a certain type of product.[/li]
[/list]

I am sure that you guys can come up with some others as well...[/list]

[Fidoric]

I will have to think through this but my first ideas are :
- it may be possible for a character to gain ranks in non-favored skills that way. It is not necessarily a bad thing, but maybe this should show on the CP cost. For example, a mage taking the knight package is likely to gain more in term of CP than a fighter as the latter has many of the knight skills classified as favored. TPs allow characters to expand a little bit the scope of their skills, but that should come at a cost.

- TPs are not only a bunch of skills for me. Often, they may include a bit of status (knight, guild mage...) and even access to certain specific talents (school of magics...).

[imported_Rasyr]

One thing that all TPs would come with is "Contacts" (friends, foes, rivals, that sort of thing -- connections to the campaign setting).

As for varying costs -- that would be problematic, AT BEST!!  Remember, many Classes get to choose one or more skills as Favorable. And while there may be a couple of ranks of good skills in there, many of the skills may be background skills that a player may normally not take.

As for including Talents? No. However, as I have already suggested, some Training Packages could/would have prerequisites (such as a Knight being from Upper Class if human (or half-human), or being a non-human (dwarf, elf, halfling, etc...) from their preferred Culture...

To be a Guild Mage, you must be one of the Mage classes, etc...

Now something that I would possibly allow is for a Training Package to turn a Talent that is normally not trainable into something that is Trainable (meaning that the player may acquire it after the game begins - but only by paying a minimum of 1 CP towards that Talent each level (and he cannot acquire any other Talents until this one is paid for).

[Fidoric]

For the favored/non-favored skills, maybe you could use a simple solution like: the TP gives you either 4 ranks in a skill if it is favored or only one rank in the skill plus makes it favored if it is not already so. For example, a pilgrim may have Navigation listed as one of his skill. If he already has it from his profession, he gains 4 ranks in it. If his profession doesn't give him Navigation as a favored skill, it becomes favored at this point and he gains 1 skill rank in it.

Regarding status, my point was for example: a knight is not only a guy with some skills (combat, socials, riding...) but it is someone with different rights and duties than common folks too.

For the talents, I understand your reluctance to tie them with any TP and I think your idea to make a talent trainable via a Tp is great (I should have read you rOpen beta v0.7 update from yesterday before posting this 

[imported_Rasyr]

Hmm.... Interesting idea regarding 4 ranks or "skill becomes Favored AND then you gain 1 rank" (I presume that is how you actually meant it, so that each costs 4 points. The only problem I see there is if I want to get less than 4 ranks in one or more skills.

As for the rights/obligations things for Knights, most TPs would come with those as well...

Another way to possibly go is to call them something other than Training Packages, and instead make them more like "Training Goals"

For example, the "Knight TG" might list 5 skills with 5 ranks in each. And then have a cost of something like 5 CP.

And then, once the character has the number of ranks (or more) in each of the skills, you pay the TG cost and then you get the contacts, rights and obligations associated with the Package. (i.e. the number of ranks in each skill becomes a prerequisite for the package rather than a benefit...

As for the SHek-P'var, yes, it WOULD require both being a Mage AND having the Shek-P'var package (and thus the rights and obligations of the Guild). Mages that do not belong to the Guild are actually considered to be renegade mages (and thus would use standard spell lists) in Harn, and subject to being hunted by the proper Guild Mages....

[Fidoric]

I like this idea of training goal very much. That way, players have a good incentive not to stray from their initial path. I feel it is something like TP trees: you reap the fruits as you stick to your way.
I would like very much to see something between those two ideas : you gain some starting benefits (formal training, initial contacts...) but the additional benefits will accrue only if you stay in your path.
I made some TP trees some years ago for HARP. You could gain a new level of proficiency/membership in an order with additional benefits for example, but you had to meet some requirements first.
For example, a squire (first rank of the "Knight" TP tree must reach a certain proficiency in riding and melee before becoming a full knight and then a higher level in tactics and leadership before being elevated to Knight-Captain...)

[imported_Rasyr]

Aha! And we could call them "Training Paths" which would allow me to continue to use the abbreviation of "TP".

And in fact, the Training Paths idea would work well with the Shek-P'var from Harn, as there are actually several levels...

Mavari (Apprentice) -- lowest level of membership..

Satia-Mavari (Senior Apprentice) -- at this level, the Apprentice is expected to leave his master and adventure in the larger world for at least a year and a day (plus he has to enrich his chantry in some manner)

Shenava (Journeyman) -- the most common of the ranks of the guild, mages of this level are encouraged to study their own areas of interest to help bring diversity among the Viran.

Viran (Master) --  to reach this rank, a mage must come to the notice of another Viran, and that Viran must basically start a petition and get 6 other mages to sign off on it before a Shenava may be elevated to the rank of Viran.

That right there would provide 4 steps to the Shek-P'var Training Path.

And a nice thing about using Training Paths, is that players may then acquire more than one. The character simply has to fulfill the requirements and then the player pays the final CP cost to gain benefits (and responsibilities) of that particular Path....

And, also, I don't need to worry about including them in the core rules, because they actually don't change the power level of the game at all, they simply become something interesting that can be used. (and they can/should be customized to specific settings..)

[Fidoric]

Could you post rules/guidelines to create those TPs so that I try to make some ?  :

[imported_Rasyr]

I most likely will, once I figure them out for myself...

Right now, it is still in the early stages of development -- more of a solid idea than anything concrete yet...

[Fidoric]

I will think about it and let you kow if anything useful comes out.

[brianbloom]

I like the idea, I think.

I feel we could also use something like a "Temple Initiate", to support clerics and paladins.  Gives them lodging and free Faith Healing at their chosen temple in exchange for a certain commitment of service to the temple.

[imported_Rasyr]

Right -- they can be used to actually tie the characters to the setting in a nice way.