Potential Changes for Combat Moves

[imported_Rasyr]

While I am planning on adding in MORE Combat Moves, regardless, I am also thinking about making some minor changes to them, making them more codified overall (to some degree).

This would basically require a reworking of the Combat Styles as well. And may even get rid of the "Advanced Martial Arts Training" talent

Changes being considered would be as follows:

Other than the "basic" moves, every move will cost 3, 4 or 5 CP if purchased outside of a style. If purchased within a style, they will cost 1, 2 or 3 CP respectively.

Let me give an example with the Unarmed Combat Moves, since that will likely be were the largest of the changes are likely to appear (as we have 3 unarmed styles given).

Current list of Unarmed Combat Moves is as follows:

Basic Punch (0)
Basic Kick (0)
Block (0)
Disarm (2)
Haymaker (3)
Moving Strike (4)
Weapon Kata (3)

This would change to:

Basic Punch (0) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 3; Dam: 2+
Basic Kick (0) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 5; Dam: 4+
Block (0) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 3; Dam: 0; Special
Disarming Strike (4) -- AB: -2; DEF: 0; AP: 4; Dam: 4; Special
Haymaker (5) -- AB: -4; DEF: 0; AP: 3; Dam: 12 or 14
Flying Kick (4) -- AB: -2; DEF: -2; AP: 5; Dam: 9+
Hand Strike (3) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 3; Dam: 4+
Side Kick (4) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 5; Dam: 6+
Snap Kick (4) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 3; Dam: 4+
Stunning Strike (5) -- AB: -5; DEF: 0; AP: 5; Dam: 4+; Special
Stunning Kick (5) -- AB: -5; DEF: 0; AP: 5; Dam: 6+; Special
Legsweep (4) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 4; Dam: 4; Special
Throw (4) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 3; Dam: 0+; Special
Knockout (5) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 3; Dam: 4+; Special
Takedown (5) -- AB: -5; DEF: 0; AP: 5; Dam: 6+; Special

Note: the "+" in the Damage (Dam) entry means that it does scalable damage, and the "Special" means that there would be special text/rules involved, like Save vs Con or be stunned for the Stunning Strike.

And then the Advanced Martial Arts Style could be changed to something like:

Sanju Style Martial Arts
Sanju is an advanced Martial Art that requires the character to have a complete understanding of Basic Martial Arts (i.e. the character must always have more ranks in the Basic Martial Arts, than he does in Sanju). Practitioners of Sanju are extremely aware of their surroundings when in combat. This translates as them gaining a +1 to their DEF for every 5 ranks that they have in the Sanju style. This is in addition to the modifier that all characters receive for their best melee skill.

Available Moves:
Flying Kick (2) -- AB: -2; DEF: -2; AP: 5; Dam: 9+
Hand Strike (1) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 3; Dam: 4+
Side Kick (2) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 5; Dam: 6+
Snap Kick (2) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 3; Dam: 4+
Stunning Strike (3) -- AB: -5; DEF: 0; AP: 5; Dam: 4+; Special
Stunning Kick (3) -- AB: -5; DEF: 0; AP: 5; Dam: 6+; Special
Legsweep (2) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 4; Dam: 4; Special
Throw (2) -- AB: 0; DEF: 0; AP: 3; Dam: 0+; Special
Weapon Kata (1) -- Quarterstaff
Weapon Kata (1) -- Dagger
Weapon Kata (1) -- Baton

And then the Martial Artist, instead of having the "Advanced Martial Arts Training" Talent, would instead have "10 Points of Combat Moves for the Sanju Style Martial Arts". The style actually lists 20 points worth of Moves/Katas. Those are specifically for the style and be purchased at the costs listed.

If the player wanted to get "Weapon Kata: Short Sword" for this style, he would have to pay 3 Character Points (the current actual cost for a Kata) and he could then use it with THIS style or any other style.

If he had another MA style that did NOT have a Dagger Weapon Kata, he could then pay 2 CP (3 CP full cost - 1 CP style cost = 2 CP remaining cost) to make the Kata usable with any advanced MA style (Katas can never be used with Basic Martial Arts).

Melee Combat Moves would include moves such as Cut (trade hits for negative modifiers) and Stab (trade hits done for bleeding damage) and Parry (an advanced form of Block) and Lunge (a specific move -> +1 AB, -2 DEF, do +4 Base Hits), among others, that would/could then be incorporated into Combat Styles similar to the Sanju style mentioned above (using the same sort of pricing scheme as well).

Thoughts? Comments?

[imported_Viktyr Korimir]

I like it, but what I would do is include a basic martial arts talent for the Martial Artist-- like a simple damage boost for unarmed attacks-- and then leave the "style" martial arts for optional rules later. When you publish the advanced martial arts rules, make the "styles" replace the unarmed damage boost with access to special unarmed maneuvers that include the damage bonus.

[imported_Rasyr]

I like it, but what I would do is include a basic martial arts talent for the Martial Artist-- like a simple damage boost for unarmed attacks-- and then leave the "style" martial arts for optional rules later. When you publish the advanced martial arts rules, make the "styles" replace the unarmed damage boost with access to special unarmed maneuvers that include the damage bonus.

While Martial Arts was the example given here, these rules would basically be applied across the board to ALL of the Combat Moves, not just Martial Arts. The martial arts were just the easiest to demonstrate with...

I would suggest going back and looking at the current rules - as what you are suggesting is similar to how we are already doing it, and the idea is to put some moves and a couple of styles in the core rules that use those Moves.

The idea being to NOT change the rules later on, only to expand what is already there in the core.

[imported_Viktyr Korimir]

That's why I like you, Tim. You have the good sense to agree with me retroactively.

Yes, I like this. If I had anything to suggest, it would be to only include a single style in the core rules as the "default" style and then expand it later.

[imported_Rasyr]

If I do make this change, the Combat Styles would include 1 MA style, Boxing, Wrestling, and maybe 2 or 3 weapon styles...

Though, i guess, I could drop Boxing (need to leave wrestling in place, and make sure to add a couple of Moves for it...)

[imported_Rasyr]

Okay, after talking with Viktyr some more in an online chat, I have come up with the following (remember, this is all still potential, not fully decided upon - but I do need to work it all out before I make a decision, hence...):

[li]Combat Moves will remain divided into Melee, Ranged and Unarmed as they [/li]
[li]Each Combat Move will still be formatted in the manner in which it is currently formatted, except for one exception - as noted in one of my earlier posts, I get the number of APs as the total AP required, not a modifier to the base AP. This change will remain regardless (I will be changing the AP table so that it reads "Basic Melee Attack, Basic Ranged Attack, etc..)[/li]
[li]Combat Moves will need to be purchased Separately for each Combat Skill (i.e. weapon group or style)[/li]
[li]Combat Styles will have lower costs for the Combat Moves than buying them stand alone[/li]
[li]Most Combat Styles for weapons will be for specific Weapons (i.e. a Broadsword & Shield style is different from a Short Sword and Shield style)[/li]
[li]If purchasing Combat Moves for a style that is only for a single weapon, the other weapons from that same Weapon Group may use those Combat Moves at a -2 modifier to AB [/li]
[li]If a Combat Style gives one or more benefits, other than the discount cost of the Combat Moves, it will have one or more prerequisites as well[/li]
[li]Combat Moves will be limited to the types of weapons that they can be used with. For example, a Move called "Cut" that allows the player to trade hit points for minuses to the foe would only be allowed for bladed weapons, while a Move called "Trip" would be allowed for most weapons[/li]
[/list][/list]

[Fidoric]

I like it very much !

In fact, if I understand correctly, you have a list of combat moves available for anyone willing to pay the full price, and then you have combat styles combining a weapon (or weapon group) with a choice of some combat moves at a discounted price. Funny, it reminds me of another thread about TPs... 

[imported_Rasyr]

In fact, if I understand correctly, you have a list of combat moves available for anyone willing to pay the full price, and then you have combat styles combining a weapon (or weapon group) with a choice of some combat moves at a discounted price. Funny, it reminds me of another thread about TPs... 

I would suggest you to add a remark for those style using two weapons (sword & shield for example). If you don't have one of the weapon, you can still use your style bonus without penalty. You only lose some advantages (DEF from shield...).

The current Two Weapon Combo style requires that the character also have an equal or greater number of skill ranks in the Combat SKill containing the primary weapon of the combo, and the Weapon Focus talent for the primary weapon. So, using just the primary weapon, you would revert to using the base weapon skill. To use just the secondary weapon, you would use the style skill (with the -3 for it being the secondary weapon and maybe another -2 or -4 for missing half the weapons required for the style)

One question: for Sanju style, you state that it is mandatory to have more ranks in basic MA than in Sanju. I take it that it is not necessary for other styles. For example, to develop a broadsword & handaxe style, you don't need to develop broadword & handaxe & style, right ?

Look at the current Two Weapon Combat -- to develop a Broadsword & Handaxe (which technically isn't possible in the current rules because that is a Small & a Medium Weapon), the character would be required to have an equal or greater number of ranks in the Long Blades Combat Skill (since it is the one that contains the Broadsword). The rules currently require you to have the Talent, Weapon Focus, for it as well.

I would suggest adding those combat moves:
- melee: shield bash (with shields obviously), weapon snare (with parrying weapons), unbalance (with heavy (large) weapons)
- ranged : double shot (fire two arrows at the same time)

The Shield bash is a yes (I already have it described in the current Two Weapon Combo style, so it will be easy to make it into a Combat Move, the Weapon Snare and the Unbalance I will have to think about... And the Double Shot sounds interesting as well..

Another point I am thinking about is the interaction between the combat moves, talents and boons. I was about to suggest adding moving shot or mounted shot to create for example mounted archery styles, but this is already covered by some talents (mounted archery, zen archery). Do you expect some adaptations there ?

The thing to keep in mind is that the Combat Moves in the core rules will not be the only Combat Moves, that I will be expanding upon them later. Nor am I going to try and figure out every possible Combat move just yet either. I am planning on giving a basic selection of Moves and going from there....

For example, for the Melee Combat Moves we could easily have the following list for the core rules:

Basic Strike - your basic attack
Block - stop the incoming attack
Disarm - knock foe's weapon out of his hand
Killing Strike - extra boon points (required to know Power Strike)
Moving Strike - does extra damage
Power Strike - take extra time, do extra hits
Cut - trade hits done for penalties to actions
Stab - trade hits done for bleeding
Parry - this is a more advanced version of the Block
Riposte - a rapid counterstrike that usually follows a block/parry
Resist - a special move used to counter a Shove (works well in being a one man shield wall
Slash - similar to Cut, but more powerful
Shove - requires medium or larger weapon/shield, but pushes foe
Thrust - similar to Stab
Trip - knocks foe down
Void - kind of like a dodge, but more concentrated in space (a Dodge will actually move a character several feet away from the attack -- a Void is simply moving just enough for the attack to miss - like turning sideways to watch the blade slide past your eyes)

That gives us plenty to build up some basic styles, and then in expanding the rules, we can add other Combat Moves.

[Fidoric]

I guess I got carried away... The rules for TWC are clear.
I am eagerly waiting for the completion of your work. I think you have found a very good way to create defensive/aggressive combatants.

[imported_Rasyr]

Pus, with expansion to this system, we could allow for all sorts of special maneuvers, such as a special attack that allows for attacking 2 adjacent foes at the same time, or one that allows for the attack roll to be applied against even more foes than that.

Not to mention, branching out to weapon specific  Combat Moves later on (such as that "weapon snare" you suggested, for the Main Gauche or the Sai).

[Fidoric]

The potential or this system is great. It allows for both fine customization of warriors and gives them a path of development as they can continue picking combat moves from their style as they gain levels.

[imported_Rasyr]

yup, that is the idea, to give non-spell users interesting things to purchase...

[imported_Rasyr]

I am working on creating a Combat Move creation system. This way, new can eventually be devised and the pricing (CP cost) for them can be consistent all throughout them.

I am also going to move "Dodge" out of the Special Situations section and make it into a basic Combat Move. I have also been thinking about dividing melee strikes (basic melee strikes) into 3 (Tiny/Small, Medium, Large and having each take a differing number of AP....

Thus, Attacks with a Dagger or short sword would take 3 AP, while those with a broadsword would take 4 and a quarterstaff, pole arm or two handed sword would take 5 AP.

Then we could have something like a Quarterstaff style that allowed for quicker attacks and such... While just learning the basic combat skill kept things at the most basic level.

[Fidoric]

No comment for the moment (crying of joy). Definitively a great idea anyway. I will have to read and test thoroughly your creation system, but at first glance, it seems very good.

[imported_Rasyr]

Okay, so any suggestions on a Talent to replace "Advanced Martial Arts Training, as that one will be going away....