Potential Spell Point Errata -- Feedback Wanted

[imported_Rasyr]

In our ongoing game, Samwise made the following comment:

1) I don't believe you spend any Spell Points when your spell fizzles.

A quick check of the rules shows that they don't explicitly say what happens when you fail in casting a spell (except if you fail high enough, you will earn one or more Snag points).

Now, the original intention (which was only an intention, not an absolute) was that the points are spent when you cast the spell, but that (upon consideration) doesn't actually take into account how spells are supposed to be cast (i.e. create a matrix and then fill it with power to cast the spell).

Obviously, the spell matrix isn't all that fragile, as casting options are basically the swapping out of one section of the matrix for a more elaborate section, and the results of Boon Points could be considered to be accidental mistakes that enhance the spell more than was originally planned.

So, how should we handle spell failures?

Keeping the above in mind, I would say that a Spell Failure (i.e. lower than CTN, but not low enough to earn a Snag Point) is basically the result of an extremely fragile matrix that shatters when you try to to empower it. In this case, I would say that the results should be something akin to the following:

CTN Variance	>	SP Cost
? CTN	>	normal SP +spell is cast
? (CTN-5)	>	0 SP + spell fails
? (CTN-10)	>	1 SP + spell fails
? (CTN-10)	>	normal SP + Snag Point(s) (spell might be cast, just incorrectly)

Thoughts? Opinions?

I want to hear from folks before I make a final decision

[imported_Rasyr]

An additional thought....

The above may be too fiddley, or too much hassle...

A simpler way of handling it could be:

Spell Failures, that do not earn Snag Points result in no loss of Spell Points. If it earns one or more Snag Points, then it also costs the caster the Spell Points that would have been required to cast the spell.

The main reason for at least this, is that several of the Spellcasting Snag Point options include incorrectly casting the spell (wrong effect, wrong target, etc...), and THAT casting SHOULD require Spell Points, IMO....

[Fidoric]

I think it is better to have a cost whatever the result. I would say that even for a mild failure a spell caster should spend 1 SP. That ensures a spell caster always have to think twice before attempting risky spells.

Most basic spells have CTN between 16 and 20. Junior spell casters typically begin with a +6 to +8 spell casting skills, except maybe semi-adepts. Which such features, snags remain unlikely. Having even a minor SP loss when marginally failing in spell casting seems sound to me.

That makes me think, a high enough roll may reduce the SP cost. You could add a casting boon reducing SP cost by one or two per boon point (minimum 2 SP).

[prongbuck]

There is a built in penalty: the caster has lost their turn/action points and gotten nothing for it. So I'd say that failing means no spell points are lost.

However you could add an option to the Snag table: spend 1 snag point to lose one spell point.

[imported_Rasyr]

Well, several of the Snag options for Spells include mis-casting it in some manner, so in those cases, where it is mis-cast, I feel that they should definitely pay the full spell point cost. However, the idea of including options for increasing the number of spell points lost for snag points is appealing as well.

Right now, I am leaning towards

CTN-1 to CTN-9 == no spell points lost
CTN-10 or more == spell points lost, plus Snag Points earned (only because some Snags do actually cast a spell, and those spells DO require spell points, they aren't free).

But like I said above, I do like the idea of using Snag Points to cost extra spell points....

[Sunwolf]

I like the idea that there should always be a spell point cost of some sort.
I would lean towards failed spells cost their CTN/10 rounded down (in other words look at the 10's digit of the CTN) in Spell points with a minimum cost of 1 spell point.  I wouldn't change this even for Snags that cause the spell to be cast incorrectly, in those cases (unless another snag point increased the spell points lost) the extra power comes from some sort of temporary magical rift.

[Trentin Bergeron]

Tim wrote:

Spell Failures, that do not earn Snag Points result in no loss of Spell Points. If it earns one or more Snag Points, then it also costs the caster the Spell Points that would have been required to cast the spell.

I like this option for its simplicity and it also makes sense. I agree with prongbuck that the inherent penalties are enough. Add in Snag Points, and it's failure enough.

[Thinaran]

Quick question. A party member attempted to cast the spell, Familiar. He failed the dice roll, but did not earn a snag.

The Familiar spell explicitly says that you can only cast it once per year. But following the suggestions in this thread, not earning a snag means he did not expend Spell Points, so that should mean the spell did not go off, and he would be able to retry the casting whenever. Agree/disagree?

[imported_Rasyr]

Quick question. A party member attempted to cast the spell, Familiar. He failed the dice roll, but did not earn a snag.

The Familiar spell explicitly says that you can only cast it once per year. But following the suggestions in this thread, not earning a snag means he did not expend Spell Points, so that should mean the spell did not go off, and he would be able to retry the casting whenever. Agree/disagree?

Looks like I need to add errata to the Summon Familiar spell as well. When I wrote  that it may only be cast once a year, I was presuming that the casting would be successful.

To me, a spell is only cast if the casting was successful (i.e. spell failures of any sort, regardless of whether or not they earn snag points, do not count against any limits on how often a spell may be cast).

The intention of the limit of once a year, is "one successful casting per year", so yes, I would agree that the character may make another attempt.

BTW, welcome to the forums!

[imported_Rasyr]

I have gone ahead and added errata to the errata page for Spell Failure.

In short, if the failed spell does not earn a snag point, the caster does not lose the spell points involved. If it earns a snag point, then he loses the spell points....

I am, also including an "Extended Spell Failure" option in the next Lirbam Novus (if I can ever get it completed - heheh).