Benefits of Combat Styles

[mazoboom]

I just can't wrap my head around the benefits of Combat Styles.  I think an example would really help me. All it does is give you discounts on Combat Moves, right?

But here's how I view it, for example Archery.

With no Combat Style. I can have:
Bows (Short) - 5
Brace - 4
TOTAL POINTS SPENT: 9

With Combat Style:
Bows (Short) - 5
Archery (Short) - 5
Brace - 2
TOTAL POINTS SPENT: 12

What am I missing?

[Fidoric]

There are two kinds of combat styles:

- those which require at least as much rank in an appropriate combat skill as in the style (like archery in you example which require ranks in bows). Those styles offer the greatest discount (-2) to combat moves and are very interesting if you plan to buy lots of related combat moves. I think they represent the most advanced styles, requiring more training but bestowing more affordable moves.

- the other styles do not require that an attendant skill be developed but offer only a -1 discount to combat moves (boxing is a good example). Those styles are easier to develop but grant less benefits.

If you plan on buying lots of moves (if you want to master Sanju for example), the first option may become cheaper in the long run. As I see it, the first kind of styles simulate styles that are harder to learn.

 I hope this answers your question, at least partially.

 If you feel that this discount is not enough to balance the increased development cost, you could restrict some moves to the type 1 styles for example.

[imported_Rasyr]

Yes, for the most part, mechanically speaking, Combat Styles offer discounts on the cost of Combat moves. With fewer ranks, this may not seem as a huge benefit, but over time, with more and more rank in the skills, the cost savings do add up.

However, there are a few styles that do offer better benefits (such as extra attacks, or attacks with a second weapon, etc.), and the Combat Styles can even allow a player to acquire certain Talents that are not normally considered to be Trainable (for example, there may be a game or setting where "innate ranged attacks" are part of the style and taught to practitioners of that style -- think Dragonball Z type of styles like the Kamehameha).

Additionally, there are in-game benefits and/or drawbacks to Combat Styles that a GM can play with. For example, students of the Dragon Style might be mortal enemies of the Sanju style, and be willing to attack them on sight. This means that if a Dragon style user sees a Sanju style character fighting, he may recognize the style and then things progress from there. Or they could simply be rivals, always trying to show one another up.

Perhaps there is an ancient style called "Elemental Archery" which allows characters to imbue their arrows with elemental energy (but which requires ranks in the Archery Style), or other arcane styles that can add a little oomph to attacks.

The styles given in the core rules are there to mostly show how styles are built (and to have the mechanism for creating styles in the core rules, so that they didn't change the balance of the game adding them in later).

And yes, not every style is going to seem to be worth it, at least not at first, but I sure that it all pans out in the end...

[mazoboom]

Thank you both for your replies.  They have helped me understand the potential of making cool new Styles with nice flavor. I also can understand the benefits of things like Two-Weapon Combo, and the other styles that give a -1 discount.  But I guess I'm stuck on the ones that need a prerequisite like Archery or Sword & Board.

If you plan on buying lots of moves (if you want to master Sanju for example), the first option may become cheaper in the long run.

With fewer ranks, this may not seem as a huge benefit, but over time, with more and more rank in the skills, the cost savings do add up.

At a certain point I can see how it would be cheaper if you are getting many moves; if you buy them all Archery is a savings of 16 and S&B is a savings of 22. But I guess my issue is this: eventually it seems to me that it'll always cost more to use these styles.  The reason for this is that to raise these skills, you have to upkeep the other skill, so you're paying double.
For example, to get Archery to 12, I would also need to get Bows to 12, and the 16 points I've saved from discounted moves has been used up because of having to buy ranks for two skills instead of one.  And in the future, I'd have to keep buying double ranks because I can't use those Archery Moves with my Bow skill.  (I think that's right.  You can't use Archery moves with your Bows skill, right?)

So, thanks for the explanation. I guess at this point I'm just stuck on these two Styles. Because once you've bought all the moves, there seems to be no benefit, only downside from having to buy ranks in two skills.

[imported_Rasyr]

Oh, I freely admit that the system isn't perfect. In fact, at this point, I wish that I had given some small measure of additional benefit to those basic styles, such as having Archery increase the range increment of the chosen weapon by 10' or  having the Sword & Board style increasing DEF by +1 or +2 when it is being used (this being a +2 beyond the normal bonuses for using a Shield) -- i.e. basically having each style grant something along the lines of a small talent-like ability.

Hmm... Perhaps, I should revisit Combat Styles in the next issue of Libram Novus to expand upon this.....

[Fidoric]

That's an exceedingly good idea Tim.  BTW mazoboom, I have posted some additional drafts of combat styles on the forum. One of those styles has been reviewed by Tim and includes special moves or trademarks.

[mazoboom]

Thanks, guys!  Whether it's a perfect system or not, I'm happy to know I at least understand it perfectly now!  I like the idea that each style has some benefits beyond discounted moves, such as the range and DEF idea.

Thanks, Fidoric, I'll check them out.  One of the things I like best about Novus is the adaptability. So while I may or may not see some problems with some of the Styles, I can easily imagine methods to use them in different ways or make new ones.

[imported_Rasyr]

One of the things I like best about Novus is the adaptability. So while I may or may not see some problems with some of the Styles, I can easily imagine methods to use them in different ways or make new ones.

Thank you! That WAS one of the design goals that I was trying to meet when designing Novus. I wanted the system to be flexible and easily adapted (and easy for GMs to tinker with to get it to meet their specific playing styles) without having to worry too much about tinkering messing up the overall balance.

[imported_Rasyr]

I am still working on Libram Novus #8 (sorry, but my new job has been taking up TONS of my time) and it looks like I have finally had time to figure out abilities for Combat Styles...

How do these look?

• Enhanced Attack Bonus (5):  This ability gives the character a +1 modifier to his Attack Bonus when using any Advanced Combat Move that is listed with the style. An Advanced Combat Move is any Combat Move that does not contain the word "Basic" as part of its name. 
• Enhanced Damage (5):  This ability allows the character to add an additional stat bonus to the Base Damage dealt by his attack. For example, an unarmed attack might include both Strength and Speed bonuses as part of the Base Damage, or Strength bonus might be included twice. 
• Enhanced Defense (5):  This ability grants the character a +2 to his DEF in any round during which he is using the Style (i.e. making or at least declaring an attack using this Style). This bonus only applies when using the appropriate skill; so it cannot be applied against attacks that are a complete surprise, or until the character is able to declare that he is using this Combat Skill.
  
  The character will suffer a -4 to his DEF for a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds that he gained the bonus. These rounds start immediately upon the character stopping the use of the Combat Skill. Canceling a declared attack to perform any action other than an attack using the same skill is to be considered to be stopping the use of this Ability.   
• Enhanced Initiative (5): Whenever using any Combat Styles with this Ability, the character's initiative receives a +4 modifier during rounds in which actions from this Style are declared and performed. This modifier applies only to that round, not to the whole combat. 
• Enhanced Missile (5): This Ability grants the character the ability to reload his Bow or Sling using 1 less AP than is normally required. Crossbows are reloaded using 2 AP less than are normally required. The Range Increment for these weapons is also increase by 5'. 
• Enhanced Range (5):  This Ability increases the Range Increment of any one ranged attack by 10'. 
• Enhanced Shielding (5): This Ability grants a +2 to the DEF provided by a shield, so long as that shield is not used to make an attack. If the shield is used to make an attack, it receives no extra bonus to DEF, but the shield's normal DEF still applies to the DEF of the character even when making an attack. 
• Enhanced Throw (5): This Ability allows the character to draw, aim and throw the chosen weapon as a single action requiring only 2 AP to perform. The Range Increment of the thrown weapon is also increased by 5'. 
• Paired Weapon Attack (5): This Ability allows the character to use two weapons of the same type to make a single, enhanced attack. The Base Damage of this attack is equal to the Damage Rating of both weapons and the stat bonus of the skill used in making the attack, and either the Speed or Strength stat bonus (whichever is not already used) plus an additional 3 points. This type of attack requires 5 AP to perform.
• Second Weapon Attack (5):  This Ability allows the character to use two weapons of the same type to make a single, enhanced attack. The Base Damage of this attack is equal to the Damage Rating of both weapons and the stat bonus of the skill used in making the attack, and either the Speed or Strength stat bonus (whichever is not already used) plus an additional 3 points. This type of attack requires 5 AP to perform. 

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[Fidoric]

My fighter's heart is shedding tears of joy

• AB bonuses seem natural
• what is the rationale behind the DEF penalty (awful pun ? 

[imported_Rasyr]

Remember, these are things that will be part of Combat Styles (and I still have to rework them).

The DEF penalty is to prevent abuse of any style using it - player says, I declare attack using this style, and then cancels action to dodge or to pull out some herbs, they should not get the bonus -- I may still remove that penalty and just be more explicit on when it is given.

second weapon attack -- that is essentially two weapon combo right there, so I figured to make it part of of the style ability. The paired is a little more powerful, but it is a single attack versus one (and you are right, I had thought that I had changed it -- want to drop it to just both DR, stat + 3 (no second stat), thought that I had done so already.... Paired, also requires twc, so essentially it will always be an add on ability to a style....

Combo Moves -- that is an interesting idea -- will look into it

[imported_Rasyr]

Ok, here are the style abilities slightly revamped

Enhanced Attack Bonus (5): This ability gives the character a +1 modifier to his Attack Bonus for every 5 ranks that he has in the style when using any Advanced Combat Move that is listed with the style. An Advanced Combat Move is any Combat Move that does not contain the word "Basic" as part of its name.

Enhanced Damage (5): This ability allows the character to add an additional stat bonus to the Base Damage dealt by his attack. For example, an unarmed attack might include both Strength and Speed bonuses as part of the Base Damage, or Strength bonus might be included twice. This extra Base Damage is granted to 1 Combat Move associated with the style for every 3 ranks that the character has in that style. This bonus may only be applied to each Combat Move once, and only to those that are initially listed with the style's decription.

Enhanced Defense (5):  This ability grants the character a +1 to his DEF for every 5 ranks that he has in the style in any round during which he is using the style (i.e. making or at least declaring an attack using this style). This bonus only applies when using the appropriate skill; so it cannot be applied against attacks that are a complete surprise, or until the character is able to declare that he is using this Combat Skill. This bonus is cumulative with other rank-based bonuses to DEF.

Enhanced Holds (5):  Normal holds usually only incapacitate their targets, but do not actual damage. Any hold performed using this ability will allow the character to bring pressure to hurt the target. Each round, after the first round, so long as the target is unable to escape the hold, the character may do the character's Strength Stat bonus + 1 hit for each rank in the style to the target of the hold. This ability can be applied to any type of hold, including Choke Holds.

Enhanced Initiative (5):  Whenever using any Combat Styles with this Ability, the character's initiative receives a +1 modifier for every 3 ranks in the style during rounds in which actions from this style are declared and performed. This modifier applies only to that round, not to the whole combat.

Enhanced Missile (5): This Ability grants the character the ability to reload his Bow or Sling using 1 less AP than is normally required. Crossbows are reloaded using 2 AP less than are normally required. The Range Increment for these weapons is also increased by 1' for every 3 ranks that the character has in the style.

Enhanced Range (5):  This Ability increases the Range Increment of any one ranged 1' for every rank in the style.

Enhanced Shielding (5):  This Ability grants a +2 to the DEF provided by a shield, so long as that shield is not used to make an attack. If the shield is used to make an attack, it does not receive that+2 bonus to DEF, but the character may apply a +1 to his DEF for every 3 ranks he has in the skill, up to the normal DEF provided by the shield.

Enhanced Throw (5): This Ability allows the character to draw, aim and throw the chosen weapon as a single action requiring only 2 AP to perform. The Range Increment of the thrown weapon is also increased by 1' for every 3 ranks that the character has in the style.

Paired Weapon Attack (5):  This Ability allows the character to use two weapons of the same type to make a single, enhanced attack. The Base Damage of this attack is equal to the Damage Rating of both weapons and the stat bonus of the skill used in making the attack, plus an additional 3 points. This type of attack requires 5 AP to perform. This ability may only be added to a style that already contains the Second Weapon Attack ability.

Second Weapon Attack (5): This Ability grants the character the ability to use a second weapon (of either Tiny or Small size) to make additional attacks. This secondary attack receives a -3 penalty to the Attack Bonus of the attack. When making 2 attacks, the character must spend 5 AP to perform them both. If the secondary weapon is not used to attack, the character may apply his skill ranks in this style (no stat or other bonuses except magical bonuses that the weapon may have) with a -3 modifier as a bonus to his DEF (i.e. 6 ranks in the Combat Style would translate to a +4 bonus to DEF when the secondary weapon is not used to attack).


Notice that I am trying to make everything as rank-based as possible...

[imported_Rasyr]

ok, have started pagemaking Libram Novus #8, so it should be out in a couple of days..