Re: Re: Novus 2.0 tidbits -- Hits & Wounds

[AresLunthar]

I wonder if the Boons, Combat Moves, and Swapping options are going to be over-whelming in game.

[imported_Rasyr]

You may be right there. Boons and Combat Moves should be more than enough. Hence the limited damage choices based on the total "Hits" done.

I was also thinking of simply making a mandatory damage swap.

For example,

If you do 20 or more Hits, you must exchange 10 of them for 1 round of Stun (thus giving the foe 10 hits and 1 Stun).

Or something along those lines, thus the table would essentially be xx hits converts to yy total damage.

Or we could just pull the damage swapping from the core, to make it an optional rule later on, and just have hits, and then extra damage from Boons (except for the Dazed and Stunned thresholds, which are in addition to hits.)

That might be the simplest way to go.

[AresLunthar]

I think we should pull it from the core, but keep it on the back burner as a full optional combat system.  The 5 or 6 times I've run Novus for a new player I've left Combat Moves out because Boons were enough and game play slowed down too much.  We always developed them later.

[imported_Rasyr]

I may include the Hit Swapping for Wounds, as a non-optional kick.

If you do 10 or more hits, you subtract 5 and do 1 Minor Wound and the remainder of the hits. If you do 15 or more Hits, you subtract 10 and do a Major Wound and the remainder of the Hits, if you do 20 or more, you subtract 15 hits, and do one Dire Wound and the remainder of the Hits.

Attacks made to subdue the foe, do only Hits, and no Wounds regardless of how many Hits delivered.

[AresLunthar]

I think when I originally developed the Thresholds the effects were not optional.  It was if you equaled the 1st threshold you were dazed, if you equaled the second you were stunned, etc.  That way you had an auto effect for higher damage.  It works really well like that IMO. 

[imported_Rasyr]

Yup, that is how those currently work, with the Alternative Damage being a bit optional (but also confusing, I agree).

[AresLunthar]

So, this is what I see.  Too many options.  And they overlap enough that they devalue each other.  I like the general idea of "massive damage" effects represented by damage thresholds being built in to the game because they are quick & easy to understand.  But, Dazed & Stunned are 1 point Boon results.  Meaning it's more than likely that if you Stunning a foe, you are likely also getting a 1 point boon because the Boon is based off the attack roll, not the damage.

This is where my math obsession kicks in: So, a Kobold (pg. 195 v11) has a DEF of 25 & AR of 8.  Daze is 9, Stun is 12.
If a PC with an Attack bonus of +10 and a base damage of 10 attacks this kolbold they need to roll a 35 to score a boon (seems high?).  But, after reducing the base damage of 10 by the AR of 8 we are left with 2 damage + scaled.  If you roll a 35 you automatically stun that foe & get a boon point (2+10=12 damage). 
Here's the thing: it's the same result but one is the result of Affect (skill) and the other Effect (damage).  I personally like the Effect version better as tougher creatures are less likely to be stunned & dazed.  However, the Boon point trigger is a critical (pardon the pun) part of Novus.
I wonder if the Stun & Dazed effects should be removed from boons or it might make sense to either remove the thresholds (as they seem to be included as boons anyway)
From a "sales" perspective they are both interesting- but, Boons & Snags are the unique to Novus feature.
Thoughts?

[kenbert]

So, this is what I see.  Too many options.  And they overlap enough that they devalue each other.  I like the general idea of "massive damage" effects represented by damage thresholds being built in to the game because they are quick & easy to understand.  But, Dazed & Stunned are 1 point Boon results.  Meaning it's more than likely that if you Stunning a foe, you are likely also getting a 1 point boon because the Boon is based off the attack roll, not the damage.

This is where my math obsession kicks in: So, a Kobold (pg. 195 v11) has a DEF of 25 & AR of 8.  Daze is 9, Stun is 12.
If a PC with an Attack bonus of +10 and a base damage of 10 attacks this kolbold they need to roll a 35 to score a boon (seems high?).  But, after reducing the base damage of 10 by the AR of 8 we are left with 2 damage + scaled.  If you roll a 35 you automatically stun that foe & get a boon point (2+10=12 damage). 
Here's the thing: it's the same result but one is the result of Affect (skill) and the other Effect (damage).  I personally like the Effect version better as tougher creatures are less likely to be stunned & dazed.  However, the Boon point trigger is a critical (pardon the pun) part of Novus.
I wonder if the Stun & Dazed effects should be removed from boons or it might make sense to either remove the thresholds (as they seem to be included as boons anyway)
From a "sales" perspective they are both interesting- but, Boons & Snags are the unique to Novus feature.
Thoughts?

My preference would be to keep daze and stunning effects as boons only.  If you move daze and stunning effects to damage then what about other damage based effects like bleeding effects? You could argue that effects like bleeding need to be moved to damage too.

As a side topic, I plan on houseruling dazed and stunning effects cost more boon points for puncturing weapons.  Similarly, bleed effects cost more boon points for crushing weapons. Similarly, other effects could be more costly for different weapon types.  In my mind this further distinguishes weapons without adding too much complexity.

[AresLunthar]

I actually think Dazed & Stun should be based on the thresholds and bleeding etc be Boons based on the Damage Type.  In effect we could have Damage type based boons - I think it was Darb who had started developing some Cold based ones already.

[kenbert]

I actually think Dazed & Stun should be based on the thresholds and bleeding etc be Boons based on the Damage Type.  In effect we could have Damage type based boons - I think it was Darb who had started developing some Cold based ones already.

I believe that blunt trauma is much more likely to daze or stun you than puncture wounds.  If you base dazing and stunning on damage taken then you can't discriminate between the damage types unless you have different thresholds.  I still feel that effects like bleeding are equally valid for thresholds.

[AresLunthar]

I certainly don't disagree.  I think it's a matter of game design preference.  It seems that it should be one or the other is my observation.  I'm OK with either.  The spirit of the boon was that you did something so well that you got to choose an extraordinary & sometimes cinematic effect.  To me that is pretty cool.

[imported_Rasyr]

You both make valid arguments.

I like having Dazed & Stun with thresholds because that can allow for those effects without requiring a Boon point. Perhaps, I should revisit the Thresholds (maybe reduce or remove the +4 portion)

Or perhaps something like this

Extra Damage
Dealt when the amount of damage exceeds one of the Thresholds

Threshold	Bashing	Slash/Pierce	SMP	Energy
Con+2	1 Daze	1 Pen	1 Bleed	1 Pen
Stamina+2	1 Stun	1 Bleed	1 Pen	1 Stun

SMP = Slow Moving Projectiles (Bows, Crossbows, etc)
Energy = Any magical or other type of attack that does not fit within another classification (i.e. lightning, heat, cold)

An then the Boon Points still remain, and as always, a selected Boon must make sense for weapon an situation. I would not allow a simple Mace to do Bleeding damage. Penalties, yes, but not Bleeding.

[Trentin Bergeron]

I may include the Hit Swapping for Wounds, as a non-optional kick.

If ...

This feels easier to use in play!

[Trentin Bergeron]

...

Or perhaps something like this

...

Thresholds are an awesome idea, I suggest using them for wounds vs. effects.

I would keep stun, dazed and bleeding as boons. Makes it more fun. I would also have some kind of "tagging" system on weapons, where you get a boon cost penalty for weapons that are harder to inflict any of these conditions (so 'bleed 0' is base boon cost but 'bleed 2' is boon cost +2, as an example). Then you can customize weapons for various advantages/disadvantages. I saw this in another system and thought it was brilliant.

I would have a threshold table on the character sheet and base the wound type on that threshold. Make it a simple horizontal table Minor[ ] - Major [ ] - Dire [ ]. The threshold is a combination/average of attributes. So, a bigger tougher creature is harder to wound than a weaker one (versus static numbers which don't take into account bulk, etc.).

[li]Attacker determines result (boons).[/li]
[li]Damage is determined in hits.[/li]
[li]Defender reduces with Armor.[/li]
[li]Remaining hits are compared to Threshold Table.[/li]
[li]Subtract the highest Threshold obtained and take that type of Wound.[/li]
[li]Remaining hits are subtracted from Hits.[/li]
[/list]

I would suggest making a set of boxes for each wound type, so you just cross out the boxes not available based on your stats and check off a box for each wound. This will feel more stressful versus basic scratch notes. I would keep hits like "hit points" and not use boxes for those.[/list]

[kenbert]

Extra Damage
Dealt when the amount of damage exceeds one of the Thresholds

Threshold	Bashing	Slash/Pierce	SMP	Energy
Con+2	1 Daze	1 Pen	1 Bleed	1 Pen
Stamina+2	1 Stun	1 Bleed	1 Pen	1 Stun

SMP = Slow Moving Projectiles (Bows, Crossbows, etc)
Energy = Any magical or other type of attack that does not fit within another classification (i.e. lightning, heat, cold)

An then the Boon Points still remain, and as always, a selected Boon must make sense for weapon an situation. I would not allow a simple Mace to do Bleeding damage. Penalties, yes, but not Bleeding.

I think that something like this would work well.