Re: Re: Novus 2.0 tidbits -- Hits & Wounds

[imported_Rasyr]

Ok, some rationale......

I use Speed or Dexterity as the  Stat to be used with combat skills (not including ranged attacks) because foes will be bobbing and weaving and trying to dodge one another while trying to attack as well. And this represents the characters using that finesse as it were to get through the foe's guard to strike.

And while thinking about this issue, it occurred to me that adding strength to an attack's damage is problematical, at least on every single attack.

So I took a look at the Action section of the rules.

We have the following:

• 1 Full Action and a Snap Action OR
• 2 Half Actions and a Snap Action OR
• 1 Half Action and 2 Snap Actions

And the problem lies here:
Full Action
[/list]

• Melee Attack (Full AB, Multiple attacks if available, etc)

Basically, I am equating an attack with full AB to be the equivalent to making multiple attacks, when they should take longer, but if they take longer than a round, that defeats the purpose of them.

So...................

I have come up with this idea........



What can be done in a round
Types of Actions

• 1 Maximum Action OR
  
• 1 Full Action and 1 Snap Action OR
• 1 Full Action and 1 Snap Action OR
• 2 Half Actions and 1 Snap Action OR
• 1 Half Action and 2 Snap Actions

Maximum Action
[/list]

• Melee Attack (Full AB; add Str to Damage)
• Multiple Melee Attacks (full AB)

Full Action
[/list]

• Melee Attack (Full AB)
• Melee Attack w/ Tiny Weapon (Full AB, add Str to damage)
• Unarmed Attack (punch/kick only, add Str to damage)

HalfAction
[/list]

• Melee Attack (Full AB; add Str to Damage)
• Attack w/ (non-Tiny)Melee Weapon or Unarmed
  Attack (-4 to Attack Roll)
• Attack w/ Tiny Weapon (full AB)
• Unarmed Attack (Punches/kicks only, full AB)
• Defensive Action (Block, Dodge, or Dive for Cover;
  cannot be declared in same round as an Attack Action)

[/list]

This allows Str to be added for Melee Attacks, but at a slight cost. [/list]

[kenbert]

So I took a look at the Action section of the rules.

We have the following:

• 1 Full Action and a Snap Action OR
• 2 Half Actions and a Snap Action OR
• 1 Half Action and 2 Snap Actions

[/list]

Hmmm .... seems action points are gone.  Will you preview the new system soon?

[kenbert]

Ok, some rationale......

I use Speed or Dexterity as the  Stat to be used with combat skills (not including ranged attacks) because foes will be bobbing and weaving and trying to dodge one another while trying to attack as well. And this represents the characters using that finesse as it were to get through the foe's guard to strike.

And while thinking about this issue, it occurred to me that adding strength to an attack's damage is problematical, at least on every single attack.

So I took a look at the Action section of the rules.

We have the following:

• 1 Full Action and a Snap Action OR
• 2 Half Actions and a Snap Action OR
• 1 Half Action and 2 Snap Actions

And the problem lies here:
Full Action
[/list]

• Melee Attack (Full AB, Multiple attacks if available, etc)

Basically, I am equating an attack with full AB to be the equivalent to making multiple attacks, when they should take longer, but if they take longer than a round, that defeats the purpose of them.

[/list]

I'm guessing that the concern is the penalty for making multiple attacks doesn't offset the increased damage that could occur when str is added to every attack i.e. the potential reduction in scaled damage due to the penalty doesn't offset the potential increase in damage due to adding str to every attack.

Perhaps half str bonus (rounded down) could be added for multiple attacks , half action attacks, etc.  This would still give a benefit to strong characters without it being overwhelming.

[AresLunthar]

This is quite interesting.  The more I look at the layers of rules for damage the more I see over-lap.  For example, the 1 point Boon Strong Attack: Does additional Base Damage equal to Strength Stat Bonus. May not be used with Adrenal Surge. 

When I look at the way DMG was written in Novus your stat adds to your Base Damage. Base Damage is modified by some Boons and so the effect of having a Stat bonus are a core part of the Boon system in many ways.  I wonder if we can just remove the Stat from weapon DMG and rely on a generic 1 point Boon based off of Strong Attack to cover the added stat damage (from whatever choice of the 4 attack stats you want)?

So, if you were wielding a Short Sword (Light Blades-DEX) your AB would be based off your DEX, but, if you had a higher STR bonus you would be able to choose to add it to your Base Damage.  And maybe you could further manipulate the Base Damage that includes your STR? Like combining Strong Attack with a Boon like Severe Blow: You do double (2x) Base Damage. May not be combined with other damage multipliers.?

I understand the idea of making weapon damage a little bit variable from PC to PC or Monster to Monster but, I wonder if it devalues Boons if you add it in as base damage.  Again, the stat is already accounted for in the scaled damage.

The proverbial can of worms it seems...

[kenbert]

This is quite interesting.  The more I look at the layers of rules for damage the more I see over-lap.  For example, the 1 point Boon Strong Attack: Does additional Base Damage equal to Strength Stat Bonus. May not be used with Adrenal Surge. 

............

I understand the idea of making weapon damage a little bit variable from PC to PC or Monster to Monster but, I wonder if it devalues Boons if you add it in as base damage.  Again, the stat is already accounted for in the scaled damage.

The proverbial can of worms it seems...

I personally don't think that adding a "damage" stat to damage devalues boons.  Boons are much harder to achieve than just hitting; therefore, they occur less often. Needing a boon to add a "damage" stat to damage just doesn't make sense to me.

Boxers and MMA fighters fight in different weight classes for a reason and it has nothing to do with skill level.  Heavier and stronger boxers hit harder with every blow. 

[Trentin Bergeron]

Ok, here is an idea......

This is genius.

[Maestro]

Oh my...
  This thread has exploded in the little time I have been gone.
  So I've read through most everything on this thread and the current problem seems to be that adding two stats to damage is problematic to some. Personally, I see no problem with it; mostly for 2 reasons.
  1. It makes perfect, real life sense that a skilled swordsman (Or whatever weapon) can do just as much damage as a wild strong man swinging as hard as he can. In fact, the skilled man has more chance of landing a hit, but no one is going to ignore the wild strong man just because he has little skill. He is still dangerous. I feel that this is reflected well in Novus, where skill not only lets you hit but also lets you hit better, but in a tight situation where you must weild unfamiliar weapons, you can just use brute force.
  2. Taking damage modifiers out of the combat system slows down what I have noticed is already a semi- slow combat system.

[imported_Rasyr]

Oh my...
  This thread has exploded in the little time I have been gone.
  So I've read through most everything on this thread and the current problem seems to be that adding two stats to damage is problematic to some. Personally, I see no problem with it; mostly for 2 reasons.
  1. It makes perfect, real life sense that a skilled swordsman (Or whatever weapon) can do just as much damage as a wild strong man swinging as hard as he can. In fact, the skilled man has more chance of landing a hit, but no one is going to ignore the wild strong man just because he has little skill. He is still dangerous. I feel that this is reflected well in Novus, where skill not only lets you hit but also lets you hit better, but in a tight situation where you must weild unfamiliar weapons, you can just use brute force.
  2. Taking damage modifiers out of the combat system slows down what I have noticed is already a semi- slow combat system.

Ok, so what I have decided to do is a combination of both ideas I presented above.

1) Str becomes a modifier to the maximum amount of Scaled Damage that can be dealt, but is not applied to actual damage.
2) Added the Maximum Action for multiple attacks and an attack that includes adding Str to the the total damage dealt (with other Actions to account for these changes).

This allows for the wild strong man as well as skill based attacks both.

And for those worried about the Combat Boons, Those have actually changed greatly from Novus 1.0, the current list does not have the Adrenal Surge or Strong Attack (I may need to add some entries back in)

[AresLunthar]

Works for me.  I think a lot of stuff will work itself out when we get to a play test.

[imported_Rasyr]

yup, I am working on the next playtest doc for you guys AND on building a beta doc for public release.

[kenbert]

yup, I am working on the next playtest doc for you guys AND on building a beta doc for public release.

I'm looking forward to seeing all of changes....

[Fidoric]

1) Str becomes a modifier to the maximum amount of Scaled Damage that can be dealt, but is not applied to actual damage.

Meaning that a troll will deal as much damage as a halfling wielding the same  weapon except if it rolls high enough. This is not very believable IMO. I am much more in favor of using both attack stat and damage stat. I understand the problem with multiple attacks. Maybe we can consider adding strength to an only attack each round?

2) Added the Maximum Action for multiple attacks and an attack that includes adding Str to the the total damage dealt (with other Actions to account for these changes).

I understand the rationale for multiple attacks would should require more activity than a single one. Not sure about the second part as it contradicts my previous point.

Besides if strength is not use anymore to calculate damages it becomes almost useless for warriors. This is counter intuitive. Why would any character put a high value in strength if it does not allow him to delà more damages, wield heavier weapons or bulkier armors?

[imported_Rasyr]

Say a Troll has a strength of 7 and a Halfling has a strength of 3.

A dagger normally does  4  hits base, and up to 4 hits of scaled damage. Under the Strength as a modifier to scaled damage paradigm, the Halfling would do 4 hits of base damage and up to 7 hits of scaled damage (4-11 hits total), while the troll would do 4 hits base and up to 11 hits of scaled damage (4-15 hits total).

Now strength (usually) does add into the attack roll, and the better the roll the more damage dealt. This way, we do not normally add the strength stat twice.

[Fidoric]

Understood.
My concern is that this troll would have to roll high before his strength comes into play (at least 8 points above its foés DT). And this get worse with heavier weapons. The more DR your weapon have the higher you need to roll before benefiting from your strength. With a dagger you need to roll 8+ above DT, with a broadsword 16+ ( twice DR) and up to 24+ for the longer polearms.
This means that the heavier weapons like Greatswords are those that benefits the less from high strength. That seems weird.
I think this is more troublesome than using two stats in combat. After all, weapons are just a means to give additional strength through leverage and produce additional effects through their « business end ».

[imported_Rasyr]

Maybe change damage to something like

St+(amount over DT) + (1/2 Current DR).

This would allow forStr to be the core of damage, and the weapon to add more (and add other types of damage, i.e. bleeding, etc..)